Please help with machine chatter & movement


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    Default Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Im new to CNC so please forgive me for my lack of terminology. I've owned a signshop for 22 years but we have always been cut & digital vinyl.

    I purchased a used Machine Tool Camp 4'x8' table with a router ( not spindle ) for what i think was a eeasonable price. I went and saw it route before purchase and I noticed a chatter and when I asked on a forum I was told it was their hold down method, the used wedges that hold in but not down. So I get the machine set it up and now with the wood screwed down to the spoil board I'm still getting a chatter and the table is setting on top of the same wooden build "box" that the original owner used, and I notice it has some movement. I will try to post some photos and or videos later on if I can get them to load up.

    I'm not sure if my problem is the 12 year old Milwaukee not spinning as fast as it is supposed to or the movement of the table or if something is wrong with the entire table.

    I've tried cutting slow 30 in/min up to 100 in/min and it actually seemed to chatter less at the higher speed unless i just noticed it more at the lower speed.

    Any help is appreciated

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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Post some video of it with sound. Your description is leaving too many questions and providing not enough details. Some photos of the table would be beneficial as well.

    Chris D



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Test each individual axis without a cutter, for smoothness of acceleration and deceleration at maximum feed rate.
    goto maximum travel limits
    and for a true test rapid to a point at max feed
    then immediate reversal of direction opposing
    Max feed rate X to 8ft then max -x to x0
    Same for Y and Z

    Been doing this too long


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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Please help with machine chatter & movement-20170809_164423-jpg

    So I was able to spend some time tonight working on the router, I removed the casters and added some diagonal supports to the inside of the bottom wooden stand and it tightened the table up a lot. The router ran smoothly throughout the entire table once I slowed down the initial velocities and it seemed to cut a bit better but it still has a bit of movement in the large aliminum shelf that the router and dust collector mounts up to. Can anyone tell me if a spindle would fix this issue & what would I need to get to convert this over to a spindle. I don't want to get the cheapest but I don't want to get the top shelf stuff from the start. I know there has to be a very good spindle at a fair price.

    Thanks for all the help



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    The original owner came over today & I learnt a lot about running the machine & actually was able to cut my first job that I'll make money on, nothing fancy but it is better than hand cutting a 5' long arcout of 3mil PVC.

    On long smooth cuts the head seems to do pretty good it's the starting & stopping on detailed work that causes the issues. I'm still convinced it is from the cantilevered shelf that holds the router & dust collection. I'm saving for a spindle but in the mean time I'm going to get a piece of aluminum and bolt it up the help hold the "shelf better & hopefully it makes a difference.

    Any advice on spindles is greatly appreciated.



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Does anyone have any experience with any of the 2.2kw 220v Chinese water cooled spindles on Ali or eBay?

    Thanks



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary-Wiant View Post
    The original owner came over today & I learnt a lot about running the machine & actually was able to cut my first job that I'll make money on, nothing fancy but it is better than hand cutting a 5' long arcout of 3mil PVC.

    On long smooth cuts the head seems to do pretty good it's the starting & stopping on detailed work that causes the issues. I'm still convinced it is from the cantilevered shelf that holds the router & dust collection. I'm saving for a spindle but in the mean time I'm going to get a piece of aluminum and bolt it up the help hold the "shelf better & hopefully it makes a difference.

    Any advice on spindles is greatly appreciated.
    Well you are at least partially right that the cantilevered shelf is an issue, even a little bit of reinforcement would go a long ways to stiffening that up. I'd immediately look at what you can do for a diagonal or gusset type reinforcement of that shelf. Reinforcing that area should help with anything shelf deflection related.

    As for a spindle helping things they generally do. The qualifier here is that they do when properly mounted. I suspect though that as you start to improve the machine you will find more and more that needs improvement. With only one picture, the design of the machine seems to indicate many questionable mechanical areas. I'm very interested to see what your X-axis bearings look like, it almost looks like unsupported linear rails.



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Thank you, I can take some photos if I don't get down tomorrow I'll get some Monday morning. Like I've said I'm very new to CNC, unfortunately the more I learn the less likely I would buy this router again, i think we can do some good signs with it but it's not turn key but for the price I got it, i should be able to do a little upgrading. If the major parts are good, I'll slowly update it to where it needs to be.

    Hopefully I won't hear the general design is wrong, 80/20 seems to be used a lot so hopefully that can stay. Any advise on the spindle is greatly appreciated.

    Thanks



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Machine Tool Camp was one of the first companies offering DIY CNC plans, about 15 years ago.
    Yes, if you put some triangular braces on the spindle mount, it should stiffen it up considerably.

    It's not a terrible design, but I'm not a fan of the round rails. They often have some play in them. And today, most would consider those extrusions to be on the small side.

    AS for the spindle, yes, there are probably hundreds of members here using them. Do you have specific questions?

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Again, I will state that a video of the machine cutting to demonstrate what is going on will be helpful and as mentioned what is supporting the table? Photos showing what is under there and the type of rails used for the axis is a big help.

    As for a spindle, yes, I have the air cooled 2.2kw, I have mostly been doing light engraving with it and it works ok. I have not not much heavy routing with it yet. However, expecting the spindle to resolve mechanical "slop" in the design of the machine is like expecting a new paint job to make a car go A LOT faster.

    Chris D



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    I agree with Chris, in that the spindle won't make much difference (if any) in cut quality, especially when cutting wood. But it will have a lot more power.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    I will post photos of the braces once I get them installed, I need to be able to get the router in & out to change bits so I'm thinking of putting 1/2"x1"x18" straps that run from the front of the "shelf" to about the top of the vertical plate, and maybe a small triangular piece towards the connection of the two pieces.

    Yes it has round rails & I have noticed a slight bit of play in the rails and I asked the original owner if I was able to tighten them up in anyway and he said no, bug if I can easily replace them with something much better I'm willing to try.

    As for the spindles, keep in mind I do not have 3 phase electric, in my router building.
    1.) I was just wondering how hard it would be for me to set it up the VFD with very limited CNC experience.
    2.) Are all the Chinese models about the same or is there a difference between makes?
    3.) Do different sellers have better warranty than others?
    4.) How long can I expect to get out of these spindles?
    5.) Do they have enough torque, I would imagine it's pretty easy to route signfoams, PVC and soft woodcut how do they do routing hard woods, acrylic & aluminum?
    6.) I understand that these are not the quality of $2000 plus Perske spindles but what am I loosing by purchasing one of these spindles?

    Thanks for the help



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris D View Post
    Again, I will state that a video of the machine cutting to demonstrate what is going on will be helpful and as mentioned what is supporting the table? Photos showing what is under there and the type of rails used for the axis is a big help.

    As for a spindle, yes, I have the air cooled 2.2kw, I have mostly been doing light engraving with it and it works ok. I have not not much heavy routing with it yet. However, expecting the spindle to resolve mechanical "slop" in the design of the machine is like expecting a new paint job to make a car go A LOT faster.

    Chris D
    I don't have a video of it running since I added supports to the base. But I'll get some video & photos either this weekend or Monday at the latest.

    I'm not expecting to have the spindle help with the play in the machine, I think a lot of my problem comes from the weight of the router & shelf hanging off the router bracket and I think that if I mounted a spindle off of the vertical bracket I wouldn't have as much movement.



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    You don't want to take the router/spindle out to change bits. Nobody does that.

    Replacing the round rails with profile rails would make a big difference, but may be difficult, as the profile rails have a much lower profile.

    discounted automation products: BLH Linear Guideway, BLH 20mm Linear Guideways

    You only need single phase 240V for a 2.2Kw spindle.

    1) They are pretty simple to set up. The critical part is getting the VFD settings correct. Some sellers will specify the important settings.

    2) No, not the same, but similar. I'd recommend buying from a seller that's been around for a while.

    3) If it coming from China, there's really no warranty, regardless of what they say. The cost of sending it back to China would be prohibitive. If it arrives DOA, you can always get PayPal to refund your money.
    If you want a warrantly, buy from a USA seller like UGRA.com, but you'll pay almost double for the warranty, and knowing you'll get a good spindle.

    4) Depends on how hard you push it, and the luck of the draw. Many people seem to get at least several years out of them. If you want maximum life, consider a spindle with an ER25 collet, which will have larger bearings. These tend to be air cooled, though.

    5) A 2.2Kw spindle should be more powerful than any handheld router you can buy.

    6) Nothing. For about $325 for spindle VFD, you can buy 5 or 6 for the price of a Perske or HSD spindle. They are probably a little less powerful, though.

    If you read through the forums here, you'll find that just about everyone that goes from a router to a spindle finds it to be a great uprgade.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    The way my router is installed I don't think it is possible to change bits without removing it, but I'll look into it. The original owner told me that we how to change the bit.

    What would be the difficult part of changing the rails? If I'm going to loose Z that shouldn't be an issue because I have 6" now and I doubt I'll use that much. I looked at the link and there are square & flange type, which is better?

    I thought some 2.2kw showed 380v. How do I know if a seller has been around for a while?

    The language on the auctions I've read have been pretty rough, will the sellers be able to supply good instructions?

    I'll check out ugra.comÂ*-Â*This website is for sale!Â*-Â*ugra Resources and Information..

    Which are more durable, air or water cooled?
    What is the pro's & cons of water cooled vs air cooled spindles? What is the largest bearing available on water cooled?

    Thanks
    Gary



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Water cooled spindles are quieter and don't blow dust around. They can also run at a lower speed than the air cooled spindles but this also depends on the VFD. But water cooled spindles also require a small pump, heat exchange and a plumbing loop. Not real expensive, complex or difficult but not as easy as an air cooled spindle. I think among the 80mm 3hp spindles the bearings are the same whether they are air cooled or liquid cooled.



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Water cooled are ok , better cooling , and u can go low speed , and low noise .



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    The way my router is installed I don't think it is possible to change bits without removing it, but I'll look into it.
    OK, looking closer I see that the entire router base is mounted to the machine. Personally, I'd consider making a new mount that gave better access to the collet. Or, buy one of these, if it will fit your router.
    Router and Spindle Mounts | CNCRouterParts

    What would be the difficult part of changing the rails?
    They are not as tall, so you may have clearance issues, mainly on the Z axis. Not height clearance off the table, but clearance for the screw and nut.

    I looked at the link and there are square & flange type, which is better?
    Both are the same. Whichever are cheaper, and fit's the best is the ones you'd want.

    I thought some 2.2kw showed 380v.
    Yes, but you want the 220V versions.


    The language on the auctions I've read have been pretty rough, will the sellers be able to supply good instructions?
    No, not really.
    Buy a "Huanyang" VFD, and it'll come with a decent manual, or you can download it here: http://www.hy-electrical.com/bf/inverter.pdf


    Which are more durable, air or water cooled?
    Neither, really. They are basically the exact same thing, in a different case.

    What is the pro's & cons of water cooled vs air cooled spindles?
    Water cooled will run a little cooler, and because of this, can be run a little slower than an air cooled with a shaft driven fan. Water cooled have a recommended minimum speed of 6000rpm, and air cooled are 8000rpm.
    Water cooled are a little cheaper
    Water cooled are a bit quieter, but cutting noise will be much greater than either one.
    I have two air cooled spindles 2.2Kw spindles, and they are much quieter than any handheld router.
    The biggest con with water cooled is you need a pump, reservoir, and water lines. Air cooled is much simpler.
    I personally don't think the air blowing out the bottom of an air cooled spindle to be an issue. You're dust collection should be far more powerful than the cooling fan. I'm actually adding compressed air to blow the dust out of the cut on my machine.

    What is the largest bearing available on water cooled?
    All water cooled are the same.
    There are two types of air cooled.
    The round type are all the same, like this:
    AIR COOLED 2.2KW SPINDLE MOTOR ER20 AND MATCHING 2.2KW INVERTER DRIVE VFD | eBay

    Air cooled come in two types.
    With ER20 collets, like this: 【USA Stock】 Square 2.2KW Air Cooled Spindle Motor ER20 220V 24000rpm For CNC | eBay
    or with ER25 collets and larger bearings, like this: 2.2KW Air Cooled ER25 Spindle Motor VFD Inverter Variable Frequency Driver CNC

    How do I know if a seller has been around for a while?
    By spending a lot of time reading through forums.
    I bought my VFD from Solar Jean on Ebay, which is the first link I posted. They've been around as long as anyone else that I'm aware of, and ship from the US. Delivery only took a few days.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary-Wiant View Post
    I will post photos of the braces once I get them installed, I need to be able to get the router in & out to change bits so I'm thinking of putting 1/2"x1"x18" straps that run from the front of the "shelf" to about the top of the vertical plate, and maybe a small triangular piece towards the connection of the two pieces.
    That is a bit strange having to remove the spindle to change cutters. If the tis the case I'd look around for a completely different spindle mount if you want to stick with common routers for a spindle.
    Yes it has round rails & I have noticed a slight bit of play in the rails and I asked the original owner if I was able to tighten them up in anyway and he said no, bug if I can easily replace them with something much better I'm willing to try.
    If they are too loose as to allow an axis to rock then you have trouble. New bearings might fit better if the rods themselves aren't worn out. Some round bearing mounts do allow for some adjustment to fit but if the current mounts don't permit this then you are out of luck.

    It would be a good idea to try to isolate which of the axis have the most play. That way you can focus repair or upgrades on the worse parts of the machine first.
    As for the spindles, keep in mind I do not have 3 phase electric, in my router building.
    Generally that isn't a problem if the motor horsepower is under about 5 HP (about 3.75 KW). With a bit shopping you can find VFD's rated for operation (in the manuals or spec sheets) at those power levels. From around 5HP on up you would likely need the support of an applications engineer to get a properly sized drive.

    Most buildings the that have single phase power do have 220 VAC available but may not have any outlets or machine feeders installed. An electrician can easily determine what you have available but in general things go a lot better if you have 220 VAClines available. In one case where we didn't have such we used a single phase step up transformer to power a 220 VAC VFD but the warning here is that that was a fractional horsepower motor. You still have the problem of only so much power being available out of 15 amp or 20 amp common wall outlets.
    1.) I was just wondering how hard it would be for me to set it up the VFD with very limited CNC experience.
    Tough to say. The VFD itself has nothing to do with the CNC beyond the interfacing. This stuff isn't hard to learn if you have some background in electrical systems but it does take some time reading the manuals and maybe asking a few questions. In the end only you can say what your tech skills are.
    2.) Are all the Chinese models about the same or is there a difference between makes?
    I'd have to say no they aren't the same. Sadly you have many Chinese manufactures knocking off others Chinese manufactures so it isn't always easy to determine if you are even getting the "good" version. From my perspective it is easier to let an importer and reseller handle figuring out what is good enough quality and what isn't. Yes you pay more that way.
    3.) Do different sellers have better warranty than others?
    They are independent vendors why wouldn't they have variability in their warranties.
    4.) How long can I expect to get out of these spindles?
    That depends upon what your do with them.
    5.) Do they have enough torque, I would imagine it's pretty easy to route signfoams, PVC and soft woodcut how do they do routing hard woods, acrylic & aluminum?
    The big problem with high speed spindles is that their horsepower is rated at max RPM's. When running at their lowest possible RPM's they have far less power available. In other words you don't have the advantages of gear reductions (providing far lower speeds and more torque) seen in more conventional mills that allow running a wider array of tools. Generally this isn't a huge problem in the materials you mention though. Given that you won't be running a 6" fly cutter over aluminum with the easy you can on a conventional mill.
    6.) I understand that these are not the quality of $2000 plus Perske spindles but what am I loosing by purchasing one of these spindles?

    Thanks for the help
    Reliability! However everything is relative, the Chinese spindles are worlds aways better than the common routers used in the very low end machines. If nothing else the wide availability of ER collets is a big advantage for the Chinese spindles. The ER collets can also make use of tooling that normally is used in Swiss machines. So in general it is probably better to look at the advantages they offer over retasked hand held routers.



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    Default Re: Please help with machine chatter & movement

    Here are a couple photos from my router, I think I understand what you are talking about with the profile rails are smaller than the round ones on my current machine. Can I place a spacer to raise the new profile linear rods to the height of the old rods?

    Any help is appreciated.

    Please help with machine chatter & movement-20170819_125147-1593x1195-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Please help with machine chatter & movement-20170819_125222-1593x1195-jpg   Please help with machine chatter & movement-20170819_125259-1593x1195-jpg  


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