110v VFD's. Any issues?


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    Default 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    I noticed that 110v VFD's are now widely available in 1.5kw, 2.2kw, 3kw and 4kw. Being able to use any 110v outlet would be way more convenient than being limited to the one 220v outlet in my workspace but are there any issues I should be aware of with them?

    Is anyone here using one? If so, how do they perform vs the 220v equipment?

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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    I've used 120V input VFDs up to 0.4KW with no problem. The problem would start with higher power ratings. A 1 KW motor at 120V is going to draw around 15 amps which is going to max out many 120V circuits. A 4 KW motor is going to draw close to 50 amps on a 120 V circuit. Putting the VFD between the wall and the motor does not change the amp draw at the wall, except to increase it a bit.



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I've used 120V input VFDs up to 0.4KW with no problem. The problem would start with higher power ratings. A 1 KW motor at 120V is going to draw around 15 amps which is going to max out many 120V circuits. A 4 KW motor is going to draw close to 50 amps on a 120 V circuit. Putting the VFD between the wall and the motor does not change the amp draw at the wall, except to increase it a bit.
    That's kinda what I was thinking might be the problem.

    I don't understand how or why people are using them. If it requires getting the electrician to put in a special outlet / breaker just to use it, you might as well have him (or her) put in an extra 220v outlet.... unless.... there is another way around this problem?



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    There was a thread here last week where someone bought a 120V 2.2Kw spindle, and he found it had less power than his porter cable router.

    Gerry

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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    That's kinda what I was thinking might be the problem.

    I don't understand how or why people are using them. If it requires getting the electrician to put in a special outlet / breaker just to use it, you might as well have him (or her) put in an extra 220v outlet.... unless.... there is another way around this problem?
    No way around it. It just simple physics, a 1 KW motor is going to require 1 KW worth of power to run it. As the voltage goes down the amps go up, but power remains the same.



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    That's kinda what I was thinking might be the problem.
    Yep no free lunch.
    I don't understand how or why people are using them. If it requires getting the electrician to put in a special outlet / breaker just to use it, you might as well have him (or her) put in an extra 220v outlet.... unless.... there is another way around this problem?
    Electrical systems, at least from the home level aren't that difficult. You can DIY the solution by reading any of the many texts that can be had, but I generally recommend taking a night class so that someone can comment on your technique.

    In the end a router of any largish size is a lot like a table saw in that you really benefit from being able to have sufficient power for a large motor. In the case of a router you generally have three servos or steppers to power plus the spindle motor. So if you want to get reasonable performance out of a large machine you really need to consider a spindle that requires more power than a 120 vac outlet can supply. Also for reliability it is a good idea not to max out an outlet, I like to see them derated to around 80%. The last thing you want on a CNC machine is a nuisance trip in the middle of a long process.

    In the end the smart move is to have a shop full of outlets that supply 220 VAC that allow you to position machinery as needed. Wire up any machine using integral horsepower (anything larger than 1 HP) motors for 220 Vac where possible. My farther went through this with some of his shop equipment, table saws and the like, running on 220 VAC greatly reduced randomly tripped breakers simply due to having some margin for intermittent overloads. Things to consider for 220 VAC commonly found in home shops: table saws, large band saws, air compressors, mig/flux core welders, planners, vacuum systems and so forth. Some items like air compressors, vacuum systems and other high demand stationary tools benefit from or may require, dedicated circuits.

    You may want to hire an electrician, I just wanted to point out that it isn't really required in most locations. Also it is a bit misleading to call the outlets "special", the various 220 VAC outlets are standardized just like the 15 & 20 amp outlets seen in most homes. It could be argued that there are more variations in 220 VAC outlets but that doesn't make them special.



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    The special outlet I was referring to was a 110v one capable of supplying enough amps to power a 2.2kw spindle without tripping.

    This whole issue confuses me as 110v vfds that output 240v seem to be getting more common. There is a new square 1.5kw spindle with 110v vfd on eBay recently, in addition to the other 110v 2.2kw and 3kw VFDs.



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Here's a 110V 3KW VFD.
    NEW! 110V 3KW Variable Frequency Drive Inverter VFD 4HP 13A | eBay


    It says the output voltage is 105V-115V.

    You're not running a 3KW spindle on 110V.
    I would trust anything over 1.5Kw, and even those are suspect.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Here's a 110V 3KW VFD.
    NEW! 110V 3KW Variable Frequency Drive Inverter VFD 4HP 13A | eBay


    It says the output voltage is 105V-115V.

    You're not running a 3KW spindle on 110V.
    I would trust anything over 1.5Kw, and even those are suspect.

    It sounds like even 1.5kw spindles like this one would have issues:

    MYSWEETY 1Set DIY 110V 1500W Air Cooled Spindle Motor 1.5KW Square CNC Machine T | eBay


    This looks to be a new brand (at least one I haven't seen before). It seems like they are marketing it as a slightly higher quality spindle but with the convenience of being able to use the VFD with a regular 110v outlet. Is it fair to assume that this is just a con? It states that it outputs 3 phase from a 1 phase input....

    Any benefit of convenience goes out the window if you don't achieve comparable performance to a 220v setup.

    Someone on here posted a while ago that he was using a 220v 2.2kw set-up with a step-up transformer in a 110v outlet in his garage. He said it worked well enough. Maybe that is a better option in scenarios where a 220v outlet is not accessible....

    For now I am going to use my 220v outlet in my workspace and abandon any 110v ideas. I don't want to ruin all my work elsewhere with an underperforming spindle...



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    The spindle in that pic says 220V, but the description says 110V???

    If a chinese merchant was up front an honest about everything, they'd corner the market.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    The spindle in that pic says 220V, but the description says 110V???

    If a chinese merchant was up front an honest about everything, they'd corner the market.

    That's so true. It's the biggest problem I have with buying from Chinese vendors. It's very hard to get straight answers that I can believe.



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    I have two 110V .8kw VFDs and they work fine, but I calculate loads for the spindles at 0.1hp or less. My concern was RPM (24K) and higher feed rates for micro mills in aluminum.

    I also have one .75kw VFD that supposedly converts from 110V to 220V for a 220V 3phase spindle. I use it with a 220V .8kw spindle and again try to calculate loads at around 0.1hp or less. Works great for me.

    Sometimes I will run heavier loads, but the mills scream so loud when I do that it sets my nerves on edge. I try to run light fast cuts for everything I can.

    Since I have 220 wired to several places in my shop now I would not design a 3phase spindle machine around 110V unless it was something I was going to sell.

    Bob La Londe
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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    I have two 240v Nema 10-30r outlets near where I plan to use the machine. I am not really sure how VFDs are wired up but I am assuming that they either come with some variant of a 3 pin 240v plug, or they have exposed terminals for user to connect their own 3 pin plug cables. I'll use these outlets initially.

    My interest in being able to use 110v outlets is just for flexibility. I am building my machine base on wheels so it can be moved. I won't sacrifice performance for flexibility though. I'll skip the 110v VFDs.

    If there is a scenario where I have to use it with a 110v outlet in future, I will buy a 5000w step up / step down transformer. I have been told that this is a more reliable method of up-regulating a 110v current to power devices that require 240v. Apparently, if I buy one rated at least twice the watts I plan on using, it will be reliable.

    most of the quality transformers have voltage regulators and surge protectors built in so there should be no risk of damaging the spindle. I am curious to see how well they can convert 110v to 240v. Am I correct in thinking that there would be no loss of power when using a quality transformer?



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    You only need the size that suites the spindle VFD extra is fine if you have a large 120v supply, 1.5Kw spindle is about the max you can do with a transformer like this, a 30A 120v supply is needed to run the 1.5Kw spindle so 3000 w Transformer is all you need

    So you can have 220/240v and 120v all from the one source to run you whole machine, there are others already doing this

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You only need the size that suites the spindle VFD extra is fine if you have a large 120v supply, 1.5Kw spindle is about the max you can do with a transformer like this, a 30A 120v supply is needed to run the 1.5Kw spindle so 3000 w Transformer is all you need

    So you can have 220/240v and 120v all from the one source to run you whole machine, there are others already doing this

    The various manufacturers state different amounts for how much extra they recommend for their units. I saw some that stated that you needed 3x the watts for power tools. I am guessing that there is some ass-covering built in to those numbers. Their point is that some devices peak and exceed their stated power when you first turn them on. By a lot with some devices.

    There was a user I read about on here that said he used his transformer to run his 2.2kw spindle for years without issues. He also said that he never got anywhere near the maximum stated power draw with any of his spindles though.

    If I buy one, I'll make sure it's from a place that will allow me to return it if it doesn't work as expected. I guess I first need to see what speeds I end up using for the aluminum molds I'll be making. It should be easier to guess what might work once I know the actual power draw.



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    The various manufacturers state different amounts for how much extra they recommend for their units. I saw some that stated that you needed 3x the watts for power tools. I am guessing that there is some ass-covering built in to those numbers. Their point is that some devices peak and exceed their stated power when you first turn them on. By a lot with some devices.

    There was a user I read about on here that said he used his transformer to run his 2.2kw spindle for years without issues. He also said that he never got anywhere near the maximum stated power draw with any of his spindles though.

    If I buy one, I'll make sure it's from a place that will allow me to return it if it doesn't work as expected. I guess I first need to see what speeds I end up using for the aluminum molds I'll be making. It should be easier to guess what might work once I know the actual power draw.
    When you power a spindle with a VFD the VFD control the maximum power draw, so what you read is incorrect, the minimum speed you can run these spindles water cooled is 6,000 RPM and in reality not below 7,000 RPM for any useful torque to cut with

    As for returning one of these spindles, be prepared to pay the shipping, which in most cases is almost as much as the spindle costs

    Running these 400Hz 2.2Kw spindles with a 120v single phase supply would be a was of time, as I said it's already been tried, 1.5Kw is the max and even then they don't perform that well unless you have a 30A 120V supply to the VFD

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post
    This looks to be a new brand (at least one I haven't seen before). It seems like they are marketing it as a slightly higher quality spindle but with the convenience of being able to use the VFD with a regular 110v outlet. Is it fair to assume that this is just a con? It states that it outputs 3 phase from a 1 phase input....
    ha! Well said. I wouldn't call it slightly higher quality though. I think it all depends on your preference and what you are using it for. The 110V option is always appreciated.



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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by EricLobo View Post
    ha! Well said. I wouldn't call it slightly higher quality though. I think it all depends on your preference and what you are using it for. The 110V option is always appreciated.

    Do you mean it is more than "slightly higher quality" or that you wouldn't describe it as being "higher quality" at all? I can't really tell from looking at the specs. Most of the time the cheap Chinese units look to have superior specs to the $3,000 industrial units but I am assuming that the $3,000 unita perform a good bit better. I concluded that you couldn't tell much about the quality from the specs and pics.

    I can see that this brand uses a square design and I have read some posts from people who claim this is better but I couldn't tell you why aside from ease of mounting. round designs are usually stronger. I definitely have no idea why or if this unit is better than the other square Chinese models that have more power and sell for less.

    I am definitely interested to hear what sort of performance it is capable of from a 110v outlet and whether it can be run on a typical 110v 10a breaker. I understand that some VFDs contain phase converters and some might even have built in transformers to power 240v spindles but I don't understand enough about electricity to know if that sort of thing is possible without upgrading to a 20a breaker.



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: 110v VFD's. Any issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goemon View Post

    I am definitely interested to hear what sort of performance it is capable of from a 110v outlet and whether it can be run on a typical 110v 10a breaker. I understand that some VFDs contain phase converters and some might even have built in transformers to power 240v spindles but I don't understand enough about electricity to know if that sort of thing is possible without upgrading to a 20a breaker.
    10 amp, 120 volt is 1200 Watts more or less, or about 1.5 HP. 1 HP = 740 Watts. Because of some other factors, the useful power output of a motor is a bit less than the calculated value. Watts is a measure of power. 5 amps at 240V = 1200 watts. 20 amps at 120V is 2400 Watts is about 3 HP

    All VFDs are phase converters. Single or 3 phase AC input, converted to DC internally in the rectifier section, then output as variable frequency 3 phase.

    The 120 in to 240 volt output is derived by a voltage doubler circuit inside the VFD, done as the input power is converted to DC in the rectifier section. A simple voltage doubler consists of a couple diodes and a couple of capacitors.

    I hope this clears things up for you.

    Last edited by Jim Dawson; 09-06-2017 at 10:49 AM.


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110v VFD's. Any issues?

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