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  1. #81
    Registered ramsey321's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    Attachment 362846

    So if you've been following 1Jumper10's build log, I now include inertial effects in my performance estimation. The "I" or inertia values of 0.0002 and 0.0004 kg*m^2 are properties of the reducer gear and we don't know what they will be yet. From what I've seen, for the power output required, the required gear will have a value in this range.

    The estimation does not include:

    Cutting forces, extra acceleration required for backlash compensation, etc, etc. not included. Any mistakes that I may have made may be unaccounted for also. I'm fairly confident but have not been fact checked by a second party. I came up with this yesterday and was fine tuning it today. I changed one small thing from yesterday to include the inertia from the reducer in the optimal gear ratio calculation, which is something I missed before.

    I think the advice you were given by DMM is good, but rushed. I actually took the time to make the graphs. You're welcome.

    Feel free to invite the person from DMM to come and look at this thread. I wouldn't mind that.

    And I think 1900 ipm on a Z is more than excessive. Your Z would work with a Nema 34 and a 5mm pitch ballscrew up to a speed that any sane person would run it at. Or perhaps I'm wrong?

    The clear winner for 1800 IPM is the 7:1 at at 2 inch pitch circle diameter. That is about 0.35G above what the advice you were given according to my graph. Next is 7:1 at 39.79mm pitch circle diameter.

    My spreadsheet shows the optimum Gear Ratio based on inertia. Pinion size and gantry weight change this ratio the most.

    For 5:1 - 27mm the optimum was between 5 and 6
    For 7:1 - 39.79mm the optimum was between 7 and 8
    For 10:1 - 50.8 the optimum was between 9 and 10
    For 7:1 - 50.8 the optimum was between 9 and 10

    I'm guessing that means that all of those options have good inertia matching and that you don't have to worry about over or under shoot or any strange effects like that.



    I was thinking about this earlier today. A 750kW with a larger reduction ratio. I was thinking of 16 for some reason. They can go up to 5000 rpm. I had to get the manual out again to pull the numbers for these graphs .

    The only concern I have is I can't see any data on those reducers as far as input speed or continuous / max load output. Perhaps I missed it?

    I wouldn't buy one without that information.

    If you look at this gear for example:

    Gear Reducers | In-Line | PE-N34-010G | GAM

    It's on a Nema34 frame and it has a max acceleration output torque of only 24 Nm. It wouldn't last too long. Not sure about the other ones. If you knew the weight of them, you'd could have an idea of the load capability........

    I'm out for the next few days. Tired of graphs, much work to do. Talk to you guys later. Good luck Ramsey with whatever you choose. I'm sure it will be fine.
    Nic 77 Thanks so much for your help. I think I will have DMM look at your figures and see what they say. Thanks again



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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    It's on a Nema34 frame and it has a max acceleration output torque of only 24 Nm. It wouldn't last too long.
    24Nm = 33,300 oz in of torque, or 2000 in-pounds

    The only concern I have is I can't see any data on those reducers as far as input speed or continuous / max load output. Perhaps I missed it?

    I wouldn't buy one without that information.
    I would assume that the ratings are similar to a "name brand", as the chinese probably copied a name brand gearbox. But, at $220 vs $700-$800, imo, it's worth the risk. If they don't work out, you're going to spend a LOT more money for something better.
    I plan on using the smaller 60mm version of these with the 400w servos.

    Two of these is under $300 for both. I paid $450 for two USED 21:1 gearboxes from Harmonic Drive. These have <1 arc min of backlash. I've been watching for two years, and haven't seen any more of these. Used ones with standard backlash tend to sell for $250-$400 used. I'm probably going to use one of these for a 4th axis, and either keep one for a spare, or sell it.

    Last edited by ger21; 05-21-2017 at 07:47 AM.
    Gerry

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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsey321 View Post
    Nic 77 Thanks so much for your help. I think I will have DMM look at your figures and see what they say. Thanks again
    You're very welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    24Nm = 33,300 oz in of torque, or 2000 in-pounds
    I respect your input and I humbly think that the advice you give is helpful and worthwhile to listen to. So I am in no way trying to be antagonistic, because quite frankly, I would appreciate and value your input with any future problems that I might have with my own projects.

    That being said, 24Nm is 212 inch lbs. Forgetting the 9.81 is an easy mistake to make when converting from metric, I have made it, so has everyone else at some point. And I continue to make mistakes of one kind or another, regularly.

    The gear I posted a link to has a nominal output torque of 16Nm, a max acceleration output torque of 24Nm, and an emergency output torque of 62Nm.

    Roughly, if you multiply 7x14Nm you get 98 Nm.

    Based on the latest math that I did, at peak load, with a gear ratio of 7:1 the output of the planetary can see around 65 Nm when using a gear of high inertia, more when using a gear of lower inertia. That gear would be destroyed within a short time frame.

    I don't know if the gears in the link you posted have similar qualities or not. I suspect that they do.

    If you compare with an Alpha planetary SP 075 7:1 you get a nominal output torque of 75Nm, a max acceleration torque of 110Nm, and an emergency stop torque of 250Nm.

    If you search "sp 075" on ebay there are several ads that have 7:1 ratio, used (which could mean has sat on a shelf for a while) at around the $175 to $250 range or best offer. Offers of half are often accepted on EBay and the requested amount is often a starting point for negotiation. I bet he could get 3 good gears for $400 with a little bit of negotiating especially if he offered to buy 3 at once from someone who had more than that available.

    But he might want to use a flanged ISO pinion, or a right angle reducer, so that is why I suggested he take some time to look through the alpha catalogs to see what is available and then search for what he really wants and make some offers. Also to keep in mind the torque numbers, and look at the gear weight. For example, there is a great deal on SP 100 gears to be found on Ebay, but each one of those weigh 17 lbs so excessive for what you need. The SP 075 weighs 8 lbs.

    Accelerating an 800lb gantry at 1G to 1800 ipm is not the normal kind of situation you see with DIY CNC projects, so it has been fun to work through some of the numbers and see what's possible.



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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    I used a program to convert, and didn't realize that it was on KN-m.

    It would have been a lot quicker to just say "I think you made a mistake".

    When I looked at that link earlier, I wasn't sure exactly what gearbox it was referring to, but it showed an 8mm input shaft. I suspect that it was for a much smaller servo motor?

    The Harmonic Drive gearboxes that I have, for 400w servos, have a "repeated peak torque" of 107Nm, and a "Momentary Peak Torque" rating of 217Nm.

    The ratings on the next size smaller are in the 30Nm range, which is close to what you posted.

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I used a program to convert, and didn't realize that it was on KN-m.

    It would have been a lot quicker to just say "I think you made a mistake".

    When I looked at that link earlier, I wasn't sure exactly what gearbox it was referring to, but it showed an 8mm input shaft. I suspect that it was for a much smaller servo motor?

    The Harmonic Drive gearboxes that I have, for 400w servos, have a "repeated peak torque" of 107Nm, and a "Momentary Peak Torque" rating of 217Nm.

    The ratings on the next size smaller are in the 30Nm range, which is close to what you posted.
    Okay guys, I am trying to figure out what breakout board to use with my machine. It needs to be compatible with the 1kW DMM servos but more importantly I want to be able to control my ATC spindle (not purchased yet), coolant, tool changes, maybe a actuator ... and anything else that I might be missing.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsey321 View Post
    Okay guys, I am trying to figure out what breakout board to use with my machine. It needs to be compatible with the 1kW DMM servos but more importantly I want to be able to control my ATC spindle (not purchased yet), coolant, tool changes, maybe a actuator ... and anything else that I might be missing.
    DMMs board doesn't have tgat?



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    Quote Originally Posted by louieatienza View Post
    DMMs board doesn't have tgat?
    No they don't have enough inputs to handle everything.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsey321 View Post
    No they don't have enough inputs to handle everything.
    Are you using an external motion controller? A ESS has 2 26pin headers, one goes to the DMM BoB... other external boards will give you more I/O plus faster pulse frequency which you'll need for the servos.



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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    I'm using an MB2 from CNC Room.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    Mach3 2010 Screenset
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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Quote Originally Posted by louieatienza View Post
    Are you using an external motion controller? A ESS has 2 26pin headers, one goes to the DMM BoB... other external boards will give you more I/O plus faster pulse frequency which you'll need for the servos.
    To be honest I don't know what I need. I am relying on these guys to give me what in need in the package. So the input that you guys give me is supper helpful.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ramsey321 View Post
    To be honest I don't know what I need. I am relying on these guys to give me what in need in the package. So the input that you guys give me is supper helpful.
    You'll still need a motion controller whether it be Mach3/4, UCCNC, EdingCNC, PlanetCNC, TurboCNC (well, maybe not)... some of tbese have or are compatible with an external pulse generator that offloads the duty from the CPU and allows higher frequencies, which you'll need with the hi-resolution encoders of DMM....



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    Quote Originally Posted by louieatienza View Post
    You'll still need a motion controller whether it be Mach3/4, UCCNC, EdingCNC, PlanetCNC, TurboCNC (well, maybe not)... some of tbese have or are compatible with an external pulse generator that offloads the duty from the CPU and allows higher frequencies, which you'll need with the hi-resolution encoders of DMM....
    Yes I am definitely going with Mach 3 or 4.

    Last edited by ramsey321; 05-25-2017 at 11:25 AM.


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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    非常详细的讲解



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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    Quote Originally Posted by ramsey321 View Post
    Yes I am definitely going with Mach 3 or 4.
    So then you should check out CSMIO, SmoothStepper, UCCNC... just a few examples of dedicated controller cards that will work with Mach3/4...



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    Quote Originally Posted by louieatienza View Post
    So then you should check out CSMIO, SmoothStepper, UCCNC... just a few examples of dedicated controller cards that will work with Mach3/4...
    So to narrow it down which one is best for a servo system? Remember I want full capability with my spindle unit.



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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    It will be up to you to program macros to provide whatever spindle functionality you need. The motion controller won't really have anything to do with it, provided it has enough inputs and outputs for your needs.
    Personally, I wouldn't recommend Mach3 with a big, high speed machine. But if you want the best Mach3/Mach4 controller, I'd say either CS Labs or Vital Systems Hicon Integra.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    It will be up to you to program macros to provide whatever spindle functionality you need. The motion controller won't really have anything to do with it, provided it has enough inputs and outputs for your needs.
    Personally, I wouldn't recommend Mach3 with a big, high speed machine. But if you want the best Mach3/Mach4 controller, I'd say either CS Labs or Vital Systems Hicon Integra.
    Forgive my ignorance but why do you recommend those over Mach 3 or 4?



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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    Those are motion controllers that work WITH Mach3 and Mach4.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Those are motion controllers that work WITH Mach3 and Mach4.
    Oh ok. Got it.



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    Default Re: LARGE 5 X 10 STEEL ROUTER BUILD

    Just going by on-paper, the HiCon Integra is capable of 2MHz step frequency, while the CS-Lab only 125kHz.... AND it's also a breakout board. I never heard of them before now, but I'd like to get one...



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