Starting out, which machine to buy/build

[drxlcarfreak]

Hi guys,

I have been wanting to get into CNCs for some time and have been looking into around a 4'x4' (If decently cheaper, or can cheaply be upgrading later I would be fine with a 2'x4' machine too) machine like the CNC router parts, Fine Line Automation and Kronos kits and plans. My overall plan for the machine is mainly to cut foam blocks and MDF for fiberglass molds, with occasional aluminum cutting. I know the aluminum makes it tough and pretty much rules out MDF machines, and even 8020 is on the flimsy end. Unfortunately in my research the cheapest of these kits with doing a lot of DIY comes in around $4,000 and up, and are still a bit outside of my price range.

Since I haven't ever messed with a CNC before, I was looking into entry level machines to get my feet wet before jumping in the deep end. I stumbled across the Bobscnc E3 machine all in for around $600. For the price, it seems to be the most robust and largest work area of the cheaper end kits. The next larger work area kit I found is the CNCRP desktop kit, but the jump in price is considerable. I know that the E3 wouldn't be able to mill aluminum, but is it a decent kit to get my feet wet, or should I continue saving up for the machine I want?

I know that I could make something cheaper of my own design, but since I have never done anything like this before, even though I am mechanically inclined, I would rather have a proven kit/design than a pile of expensive non working parts in the corner of my garage.

Thanks!

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[ger21]

If you want to learn how to use a CNC, and, as you say, get your feet wet, then that Bobs CNC E3 might be OK.
But it's not even remotely close to being anywhere near a $4000 machine. (I'm just basing this on the picture on their website - I'd never heard of them before)

You can probably sell it when you're ready to move on, and get at least $300 back, if it's still in good condition.

[drxlcarfreak]

I forget how I stumbled across them, but there is little information out there. I searched this forum and only really found some threads about it being released. Not too much in the way of people building them and the results. I completely understand that I won't be getting the results of a $4k machine for 15% of the price. I may hop on getting the kit, I want to look into reviews a bit more first. $600 is cheap for a CNC but is still quite a bit of money to waste.

Thanks!

[ger21]

I wouldn't have high expectations for it at all.
If you want something better to learn on, maybe look at an OX, or a Shapeoko3?
Bottom line, is that you get what you pay for. Anything less than $2500-$3000 is going to be a lightweight, hobby level machine.

[bostosh]

Dr. Car Freak, Learn first, buy a machine last. One does not need to own a machine to learn. Start with CAD and CNC programming and tooling. There is plenty to learn. IT is good you have a purpose. once you own the data, then shop for a machine, I learned on 3 spindle gantry machines. Someone else owned. Now I own the tooling (fixtures, holders and cutters) and gcode then shop around for idle machines to run on. Having one machine restricts you to that machine.
DATA is the IP and is universal and portable.

[jckstrthmghty]

Seems you really want two different machines. A router table and a mill.

If I could choose right now it would be a cncrp pro 4x4. A good hobby machine for non production kind of work. I wouldn't waste time and money on a cheap mdf build. Just get a good tool from the start. I just don't know how to bridge the learning from a cheap machine to a nice kit. Some lessons will have to be learned the hard way and I'm glad I did some of that on a mdf build rather than much higher priced aluminum extrusion. I'll probably damage those as well.

I like the idea of the OX to learn on. Relatively cheap, straight, and easy to build. Hate the idea of delrin wheels for anything with load but could be a lot worse like skate bearing on gas pipe. Belt drive as well. Not great for cutting forces but better than many alternatives. The OX could always become a decent 3d printer once you are ready for a sturdier setup.

[drxlcarfreak]

Thanks for the honesty, my money is probably best saved for a real machine instead of wasting it on a intro hobby level machine. I was enticed that it was a kit, so I just needed to assemble it. A big plus for someone who hasn't built a machine before. I looked into the Shapeoko and OX, as well as a ton of others that I weren't aware were options before. I think my criteria have changed a bit looking at prices of kits and the DIY plans out there. I really do think I will most likely will end up needing two machines eventually. Right now, the majority of the work I would do would be foam and wood, none of it production level. I think I am leaning more towards a larger desktop size at this point, something like 24"x24"x6" work area. The deeper the Z the better for foam work. The Z really limits the desktop kits I have found. It seems that only the CNCRP desktop and pro desktop are the only options I have found. I do know a few CAD programs decently well, and I have messed with mach3 as well as CNC toolkit when I thought that I would need (and be able to afford) a 5 axis machine.

I know the deeper Z limits my options, but are there other affordable kits/plans out there that I missed for the smaller footprint? I am imagining a recessed bed for foam for full depth, and if I want to cut something harder like wood/small aluminum pieces I could bolt in a buffer bed so that the cantilever is much lower for the Z axis.

[sybilsurf]

FYI:

I'm not sure the Z range of the CNCRP machines, but my Saturn from Fineline Automation has about 10".

Ward

[ger21]

If you'll be cutting more than just foam, a longer travel Z axis will not be much less rigid than a shorter one, which is why you don't see them. Keep in mind that you can only usually cut 2-3" deep, without running into clearance/interference issues. Unless you are using extra long bits for foam cutting. $$$

[MajorTendonitis]

If you really want to learn and keep costs down , then you could always join Joes CNC . There's a one time fee to join and that gives you access to his plans . I was very tempted to build the Evolution myself , but I may just end up purchasing a Pro 4/4 from CNCRP .

[wizard]

Hi guys,

I have been wanting to get into CNCs for some time and have been looking into around a 4'x4' (If decently cheaper, or can cheaply be upgrading later I would be fine with a 2'x4' machine too) machine like the CNC router parts, Fine Line Automation and Kronos kits and plans. My overall plan for the machine is mainly to cut foam blocks and MDF for fiberglass molds, with occasional aluminum cutting. I know the aluminum makes it tough and pretty much rules out MDF machines, and even 8020 is on the flimsy end. Unfortunately in my research the cheapest of these kits with doing a lot of DIY comes in around $4,000 and up, and are still a bit outside of my price range.

Yeah a decent machine is still a big purchase. Your only alternative is to scrounge and try to get parts that come in well under normal list prices.

Since I haven't ever messed with a CNC before, I was looking into entry level machines to get my feet wet before jumping in the deep end. I stumbled across the Bobscnc E3 machine all in for around $600.

Never heard of them. I can say the machine right off the bat is an extremely lightly built router which likely will not meet your needs. It really comes down too what you expect out of these molds you are about to cut.

For the price, it seems to be the most robust and largest work area of the cheaper end kits.

I'm not sure you can even use the word robust here. One thing that immediately caught my eye where the long skinny and unsupported timing belts. You can get fairly decent low end performance out of timing belts but they need to be wide, properly tensioned and supported. I've yet to see a low end router implement timing belts in a manner that give them a chance in hell of performing well.

The next larger work area kit I found is the CNCRP desktop kit, but the jump in price is considerable. I know that the E3 wouldn't be able to mill aluminum, but is it a decent kit to get my feet wet, or should I continue saving up for the machine I want?

It depends upon what you mean by get your feet wet. If you want to learn how to operate a more robust router they might be just the nuts. If you want to learn some of the technology behind these machines then they are a bigger waste of money. I'm assuming you have some interest in the technology because you are in a DIY forum.

So nail down what you mean by getting your feet wet and more importantly nail down what you want out the machine capacity wise. You mentioned various work areas but that is unfocused in my opinion. Better to formulate a plan around a machine that you know will do what you want. Bigger does increase you expenses considerably so be aware of that.

As far as learning the technology behind the machines you can start out real cheap with an Arduino, a few stepper drivers and some salvaged stepper motors. You can find many of these parts in old printers.

I know that I could make something cheaper of my own design, but since I have never done anything like this before, even though I am mechanically inclined, I would rather have a proven kit/design than a pile of expensive non working parts in the corner of my garage.

Thanks!

That is understandable to an extent, but a pile of parts from a kit isn't much different than a pile of parts for your own design. The problem with kits is the required mark up on components to cover the cost of running a company to make those parts. CNC routers are one of the few machines that one can easily build and beat the commercial machines on pricing. Very few people build table saws for example because it is really hard to produce one that is better than the commercial machines and also cheaper. CNC routers are in a niche where not only is it possible to DIY you can often get better value for your money.

Going DIY does require a bit of a shop to begin with though. This is probably why kits are so successful, it is cheaper to buy a kit rather than to buy the machinery to make everything you need. You need to consider what you have available to yourself as far as machine tool building equipment goes.

[fretman_2]

Wizard is right about going DIY...it helps to have the right shop equipment. I had a Shapeoko2 CNC machine that I had built from a kit and I used it to cut parts for my DIY CNC machine. It would have been very difficult, but not impossible, to have built my DIY machine without the Shapeoko.

Yeah a decent machine is still a big purchase. Your only alternative is to scrounge and try to get parts that come in well under normal list prices.

Never heard of them. I can say the machine right off the bat is an extremely lightly built router which likely will not meet your needs. It really comes down too what you expect out of these molds you are about to cut.

I'm not sure you can even use the word robust here. One thing that immediately caught my eye where the long skinny and unsupported timing belts. You can get fairly decent low end performance out of timing belts but they need to be wide, properly tensioned and supported. I've yet to see a low end router implement timing belts in a manner that give them a chance in hell of performing well.

It depends upon what you mean by get your feet wet. If you want to learn how to operate a more robust router they might be just the nuts. If you want to learn some of the technology behind these machines then they are a bigger waste of money. I'm assuming you have some interest in the technology because you are in a DIY forum.

So nail down what you mean by getting your feet wet and more importantly nail down what you want out the machine capacity wise. You mentioned various work areas but that is unfocused in my opinion. Better to formulate a plan around a machine that you know will do what you want. Bigger does increase you expenses considerably so be aware of that.

As far as learning the technology behind the machines you can start out real cheap with an Arduino, a few stepper drivers and some salvaged stepper motors. You can find many of these parts in old printers.


That is understandable to an extent, but a pile of parts from a kit isn't much different than a pile of parts for your own design. The problem with kits is the required mark up on components to cover the cost of running a company to make those parts. CNC routers are one of the few machines that one can easily build and beat the commercial machines on pricing. Very few people build table saws for example because it is really hard to produce one that is better than the commercial machines and also cheaper. CNC routers are in a niche where not only is it possible to DIY you can often get better value for your money.

Going DIY does require a bit of a shop to begin with though. This is probably why kits are so successful, it is cheaper to buy a kit rather than to buy the machinery to make everything you need. You need to consider what you have available to yourself as far as machine tool building equipment goes.

[drxlcarfreak]

sybilsurf
I'm not sure the Z range of the CNCRP machines, but my Saturn from Fineline Automation has about 10".

I really like the Saturn, and they are pretty close to me. Just a bit out of my price range for a first machine.

If you'll be cutting more than just foam, a longer travel Z axis will not be much less rigid than a shorter one, which is why you don't see them. Keep in mind that you can only usually cut 2-3" deep, without running into clearance/interference issues. Unless you are using extra long bits for foam cutting. $$$

I wouldn't be doing any full plunge cuts really where I would need the full 6" depth would be on a profile. Granted I haven't modeled it yet, but in my head I would think that for most of the things that I would be using the full depth would be a more gradual slope and the extrusion/router would clear the part. I could be totally missing something here though.

If you really want to learn and keep costs down , then you could always join Joes CNC . There's a one time fee to join and that gives you access to his plans . I was very tempted to build the Evolution myself , but I may just end up purchasing a Pro 4/4 from CNCRP .

I did look into that a bit as well. The only downside is I am not a fan of MDF, which I guess that the evolution really gets rid of the MDF, but the costs creep up a bit there.

It depends upon what you mean by get your feet wet. If you want to learn how to operate a more robust router they might be just the nuts. If you want to learn some of the technology behind these machines then they are a bigger waste of money. I'm assuming you have some interest in the technology because you are in a DIY forum.

So nail down what you mean by getting your feet wet and more importantly nail down what you want out the machine capacity wise. You mentioned various work areas but that is unfocused in my opinion. Better to formulate a plan around a machine that you know will do what you want. Bigger does increase you expenses considerably so be aware of that.

As far as learning the technology behind the machines you can start out real cheap with an Arduino, a few stepper drivers and some salvaged stepper motors. You can find many of these parts in old printers.

That is understandable to an extent, but a pile of parts from a kit isn't much different than a pile of parts for your own design. The problem with kits is the required mark up on components to cover the cost of running a company to make those parts. CNC routers are one of the few machines that one can easily build and beat the commercial machines on pricing. Very few people build table saws for example because it is really hard to produce one that is better than the commercial machines and also cheaper. CNC routers are in a niche where not only is it possible to DIY you can often get better value for your money.

Going DIY does require a bit of a shop to begin with though. This is probably why kits are so successful, it is cheaper to buy a kit rather than to buy the machinery to make everything you need. You need to consider what you have available to yourself as far as machine tool building equipment goes.

I do have an interest in the technology, but also want to get off the ground running instead of constantly fighting issues because I went off the beaten path, but I guess that is the cost of saving money.

True about the pile of parts. My thinking was, if I buy a kit I would have more support when an issue arises, or be able to search a forum where someone else has had and resolved the same issue on the same machine.

Thanks for all of the comments guys. I must say this is a very supportive forum here! I have been looking into the OX machine a bit now. The options are more robust than I originally thought! I know it is entry level hobby, but the is the linear rail being aluminum going to be strong enough not to wear extremely quickly?

[ger21]

It uses plastic V rollers, so they don't wear out the aluminum.

[drxlcarfreak]

It uses plastic V rollers, so they don't wear out the aluminum.

Ahh I was immediately dismissing those and looking right at their Openrail and upgraded wheels. That's probably part of my problem, good enough, isn't, for me so I never get out of the planning stage.

[louieatienza]

If it were me, and I could start over again, I'd buy a small mill and CNC it. Then it would be pretty easy to mill your own parts to make a gantry router (plates, brackets, etc.) And you'd still have the mill for doing the heavy work, and worry about getting oils and coolant on the spoilboard of your router.

You could get Cut2D from Vectric; pretty much the easiest CAM to use for the money IMO. You can buy 3 axis LM kits from AutomationDirect for under $600, including 2 ballscrews for the long axis.

[rlwoodjr]

Hello, My name is Bob Wood and I am the owner of BobsCNC. I got hooked on CNC machines 12 years ago. My first machine was made from MDF and had aluminum rails with UHMW slider bearing. I have a picture of it here: https://www.bobscnc.com/pages/what-about-bob I tried to give it to my dad so I could build a bigger one...he wanted a bigger one too. Later I got a Grizzly mini mill and converted it to CNC. Later I moved to the Bridgeport Series 1 CNC that I found on Craigslist. See this link: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bridge...22953-cnc.html. The Grizzly seemed like a decent tool ( after it was modified a bit) until I got the Bridgeport.

I started with TurboCNC and an old laptop. My current machines use LinuxCNC which has served me well. Grbl is not LinuxCNC but it is getting closer all the time. While it does not have the features of LinuxCNC. Most beginners will find it will do the job just fine

I have built many CNC routers and I do understand that the E3 CNC router is not a Bridgeport. (the vise on my Bridgeport cost more than a new E3 CNC router. However, there are folks that are finding the E3 CNC router the right tool for the job. Check out our reviews on Amazon.

I am in agreement that building your own is a good way to go. Not because it is the least expensive ( there is a learning curve), but because it is a good way to understand how it works and what features are important. For example, A high Z height seems like a great idea until you realize how much mass you will need to keep it rigid. ACME rods are better than threaded rods, Ball screws are even better. Belts are easier to align, but stretch. If you want to hold 0.001" you will need to worry about bit deflection. The list goes on and on.

I understand I am biased, but the E3 is a good product for the cost. It is not designed to be a heavy duty production machine, but it will get CNC enthusiast into the fun world of CNC.

[wizard]

I really like the Saturn, and they are pretty close to me. Just a bit out of my price range for a first machine.

You may be in a situation where you will have to DIY a machine due to costs and the working area required. Once you get outside of machining foam the long Z axis becomes a big lever arm that results in excessive deflection on light machines. There are ways to design around this, for example you could move the gantry beam up and down but this probably isn't a good path for a beginner.

I wouldn't be doing any full plunge cuts really where I would need the full 6" depth would be on a profile. Granted I haven't modeled it yet, but in my head I would think that for most of the things that I would be using the full depth would be a more gradual slope and the extrusion/router would clear the part. I could be totally missing something here though.

If you can research this because it would really suck to build a machine that can't do what you need it to do. You need to be certain your work area will have the required clearances.

I did look into that a bit as well. The only downside is I am not a fan of MDF, which I guess that the evolution really gets rid of the MDF, but the costs creep up a bit there.

MDF sucks in so many ways it hurts. Look into new materials, one guy on here did a machine with bamboo laminate for example.

I do have an interest in the technology, but also want to get off the ground running instead of constantly fighting issues because I went off the beaten path, but I guess that is the cost of saving money.

See this has me leaning towards just buying a machine. You can spend a lot of time otherwise trying to build a machine. The problem of course is finding a machine suitable for your needs.

True about the pile of parts. My thinking was, if I buy a kit I would have more support when an issue arises, or be able to search a forum where someone else has had and resolved the same issue on the same machine.

Thanks for all of the comments guys. I must say this is a very supportive forum here! I have been looking into the OX machine a bit now. The options are more robust than I originally thought! I know it is entry level hobby, but the is the linear rail being aluminum going to be strong enough not to wear extremely quickly?

WE try to help and sometimes fail at it. Running round bearings (Vee or something else) on aluminum will eventually fail and frankly so will mild steel and even hardened steel components designed for Vee bearings. The question is will it last long enough for you, that is hard to answer. I wouldn't suggest it unless the budget is very constrained and this doesn't matter if the bearings are steel or some sort of plastic.

[wizard]

Wizard is right about going DIY...it helps to have the right shop equipment. I had a Shapeoko2 CNC machine that I had built from a kit and I used it to cut parts for my DIY CNC machine. It would have been very difficult, but not impossible, to have built my DIY machine without the Shapeoko.

Depending upon what one intends to do with the router a person may also find that shop equipment useful for a router build is also useful for keeping that router running economically. If you are build a machine out of wood or aluminum for example a good table saw would be very handy for a machine build. That same saw would then be very useful for breaking down sheet goods for the router or even dimensional stock. It really depends upon ones available space and how they will be using the router.

In other words "building shop" can be a useful pursuit but it certainly increases the cost of the initial machine build.

[RCaffin]

Which machine?
Infinite are the arguments of mages. (Ursula leGuin)
But what usually matters far far more is the amount of knowledge you bring to the job.

Cheers
Roger