Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks


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    Default Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    Well, I've been reading for days it seems, and really just starting to confuse myself. Been using a 3D printer for awhile, but now I'd like to start incorporating some aluminum plates, shapes to the mix.

    So this router will more or less be a dedicated for aluminum, with some plastics thrown in there too. I don't need a big cutting bed, 12-inches by 24-inches is the target.

    I purchased the 80/20 cnc plans, been trolling at the other sites too, with this one being hands down the most informative. I also see that the DIY CNC builder is a knowledgeable group, for the most part folks are designing their own. I'm still looking for a good set of plans, pretty handy, but a good set of plans would help.

    I guess my initial questions are moving gantry VS moving bed. I know the fixed gantry would give me a more solid machine, but don't know if the travel (24-inches) would be too much for it?

    For linear motion, somewhat based on cost I was going to use the plate, and bearing plate setup?

    For driver I was looking at the ACME screws, again seems like the best for economy but still getting good results.

    Not looking at a standard router, more looking at the variable speed spindles.

    Lastly, construction, I'm in Alaska, and the shipping quotes are just crazy for 80/20. I'm looking at a steel build. I do have access to a welder, reasonably skilled with it, but I am planning on largely bolted and tack welded connections.

    I guess with those parameters, are there any documented builds that folks think would suit my needs? This is not a production machine, simply a hobby machine. I realize a converted CNC would be the best, but again I'm not in a location where there is a big used market, or really a market at all, LOL. But do have a couple good steel and aluminum suppliers here in town!

    Any thoughts or guidance? Again, I certainly would feel better about spending 2k-4k on a build that's proven. I'll keep looking through the forum as well

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    I was also looking at the Chinese ball screws on ebay, look okay for the cost, not sure if these would be better than a ACME screw or not?



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    if it`s only aluminum I think a moving gantry would be just fine sir, if it`s only for hobby then I guess this >>>3040 4AXIS 400W CNC ROUTER ENGRAVER ENGRAVING MACHINE CARVING 3D CUTTER+MACH3 | eBay can do any machining you want plus an added bonus, the fourth axis, you can make threads on steel pipes or any 3D part you want but of course it`s a bit slower machine due to the fact it`s only a 400 W spindle, but for the price for the whole set I think it`s cheaper than your target budget, gets the job done a bit slower but it`s cheaper, no need to assemble piece by piece. it`s like plug set-up and play.



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by AKMaker View Post
    Well, I've been reading for days it seems, and really just starting to confuse myself. Been using a 3D printer for awhile, but now I'd like to start incorporating some aluminum plates, shapes to the mix.

    So this router will more or less be a dedicated for aluminum, with some plastics thrown in there too. I don't need a big cutting bed, 12-inches by 24-inches is the target.

    [That's wide for a mill, but fairly small for a router. Milling machines are better for aluminum machining, but a router can do it, if it's built stoutly enough.]

    I purchased the 80/20 cnc plans, been trolling at the other sites too, with this one being hands down the most informative. I also see that the DIY CNC builder is a knowledgeable group, for the most part folks are designing their own. I'm still looking for a good set of plans, pretty handy, but a good set of plans would help.

    I guess my initial questions are moving gantry VS moving bed. I know the fixed gantry would give me a more solid machine, but don't know if the travel (24-inches) would be too much for it?

    [That wouldn't be a problem if you've got the floor space to accommodate it. Moving gantries are more popular because they have a smaller footprint.]

    For linear motion, somewhat based on cost I was going to use the plate, and bearing plate setup?

    For driver I was looking at the ACME screws, again seems like the best for economy but still getting good results.

    [A good acme screw will give better results than a cheap ballscrew.]

    Not looking at a standard router, more looking at the variable speed spindles.

    [That would work better.]

    Lastly, construction, I'm in Alaska, and the shipping quotes are just crazy for 80/20. I'm looking at a steel build. I do have access to a welder, reasonably skilled with it, but I am planning on largely bolted and tack welded connections.

    [Aluminum extrusions are easy to work with and light, but they aren't as rigid as steel while they are a lot more expensive. If you can weld, a steel build would work better and save you money. Look at the Mechmate for inspiration: MechMate CNC Router - Build your own with our detailed plans ]

    I guess with those parameters, are there any documented builds that folks think would suit my needs? This is not a production machine, simply a hobby machine. I realize a converted CNC would be the best, but again I'm not in a location where there is a big used market, or really a market at all, LOL. But do have a couple good steel and aluminum suppliers here in town!

    Any thoughts or guidance? Again, I certainly would feel better about spending 2k-4k on a build that's proven. I'll keep looking through the forum as well

    Thanks
    People here have built some fairly heavy-duty machines from steel, but I'm not sure they're distributing plan sets. But they're good for inspiration. Here's an example: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertic...g-machine.html

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    Thanks! I've been looking at the Chinese complete routers. They do look like a heck of a deal. Really just wondering at that price and construction, what they can actually handle.....but the cost can't be beat for something ready to go out of the box, or close to it.

    Other links and tips are great too, going to be more $$ and time. But that's basically the point of my post, I don't mind going down that road if it will do what I want it to.



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    If you want a machine to cut aluminum, building it from steel would be a much better option than extrusions.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    I did some quick takeoff's for the steel and all the ACME screws and such, believe it's within my grasp. Electronics,,,,,whats the general take on the ebay listed NEMA motors, and motor control?? Yes, I do like to support the US economy, but there is a fair difference between them. I know there would not be any support, but I have purchased a few smaller motors from ebay for different projects, have yet to have an issue with them..

    I'll get my frame drawn up and post for some input. Basically my career is drafting and 3D modeling, do it everyday, have the CT to prove it., LOL



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by AKMaker View Post
    Thanks! I've been looking at the Chinese complete routers. They do look like a heck of a deal. Really just wondering at that price and construction, what they can actually handle.....but the cost can't be beat for something ready to go out of the box, or close to it.

    Other links and tips are great too, going to be more $$ and time. But that's basically the point of my post, I don't mind going down that road if it will do what I want it to.
    Ok then sir, if your budget is on $2K you can buy this >>> 4Axis 6040 CNC ROUTER ENGRAVER ENGRAVING DRILLING/MILLING DESKTOP MACHINE 1500W | eBay

    I did not say it`s perfect out of the box, it needs modifications on the control box itself (80mm intake and exhaust fans needed to be installed), need to change the stepper motor wiring harness to unlock the true torque of the machine (AWG #18 flatcord) it can be used as a commercial replicator machine, it runs 40-60W on the AC cord output, it`s a brushless DC spindle motor that runs a rock solid 240000 RPM all day of the year because it`s a watercooled motor, I can make an entire M4A1 rifle on this machine minus the barrel, maintenance wise I think it`s only the 1/8 carbide bits, your gonna need a lot of it specially if you let it mass produce things, let`s a thousand 1911 pair of grips will cost me 5-6 carbide bits, you need to purchase also a bench grinder to make the single flute 1/8 carbide bits at the same time sharpening it, it does`nt match the actual speed gun manufacturers` machine used on their production but it can copy it 100% accurate on all corners now this depends on the programmer though, sometimes when I program CAMs sometimes it will take me 3-4 hours including testing and recalibrating the cuts, once it`s perfect it can go endless cycles on several machines for production.





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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    KHOUJ, those grips are awesome. I like your taste, with the color change on the bottom.

    What I really need to do instead of just pricing peices and parts is to do a real $ takeoff. I'm of the age that I just want to do this once. But can't go to the 4-10k range to make that happen. Lol

    I'll keep reading, even from your post I need to research the air cooled and water cooled motors more.

    Thanks



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by AKMaker View Post
    KHOUJ, those grips are awesome. I like your taste, with the color change on the bottom.

    What I really need to do instead of just pricing peices and parts is to do a real $ takeoff. I'm of the age that I just want to do this once. But can't go to the 4-10k range to make that happen. Lol

    I'll keep reading, even from your post I need to research the air cooled and water cooled motors more.

    Thanks
    thanks for the compliment sir, though it`s not really my design, it`s from a customer, were just mass producing it in the shop, as for the machine it`s only $1,372 then the 80 mm fans are only $ 5 each X 2 = $10 then connect it to the existing power supply of the unit, if you dont let this machine working all day throughout the month I guess you wont be needing to change the harness, so all in all it only cost you $ 1500 below but still that`s a lot of money on my opinion



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    KHOUJ, you got me thinking a bit more. Do you have any pictures of any aluminum parts you have made on your machine? Thought being I may pick one up just for my immediate need, then start picking up parts here and there for a build. That will give me experience with mach3 and just running a machine. Thanks



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    What I really need to do instead of just pricing peices and parts is to do a real $ takeoff. I'm of the age that I just want to do this once. But can't go to the 4-10k range to make that happen. Lol
    If you want more than just a lightweight hobby grade machine, you need to spend closer to $4000-$5000, maybe more. Price depends on what you're capable of doing yourself, and the level of performance you're looking for.

    Electronics,,,,,whats the general take on the ebay listed NEMA motors, and motor control?? Yes, I do like to support the US economy, but there is a fair difference between them.
    Some are OK. Some are bad. Good, high performance stuff is more expensive.

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by AKMaker View Post
    KHOUJ, you got me thinking a bit more. Do you have any pictures of any aluminum parts you have made on your machine? Thought being I may pick one up just for my immediate need, then start picking up parts here and there for a build. That will give me experience with mach3 and just running a machine. Thanks
    Basically sir you can cut anything on this machine assuming it`s all softer than your bit used, I used a plain 1/8 carbide bit rod then sharpen it my way, the hardest one I ever run on this unit is the high carbon steel mold, I only use cooking oil mixed with kerosene (50/50) as a cooling agent and lubrication on the bit while working.



    It took me 3 hours on making this pair of steel mold, it`s horribly slow (300/100)



    Custom motorcycle conversion bracket for cafe racer style set-up, 9 minutes a piece



    Another 3 hours+ job, 60 mm thick aluminum custom triple clamp, the owner wants to install 150/60X17 sleek tires on his front tires, so he wants the triple tree to to be widened to accommodate the very wide tires, it`s for a motor show set-up



    This is a 4 axis job, the slides are just bolted on, I only machined the circular tube and the precised holes.



    M4A1 aluminum lower receiver, it consist of 3 different CAM programs I made to shape it like that, personally I would prefer machining stainless steel as a lower receiver for personal use though it`s a bit heavy on my opinion but it can last a lifetime.



    Stainless steel watch strap, 6 minutes a piece



    This is the bit I use, its just a plain round 1/8 carbide bit, it`s been sold here just plain 10 inches long, it`s more economical to make your own single bit because you can sharpen it easily with just a small bench grinder if it gets dull in the middle of the work piece, just stop MACH 3, stop the spindle, raise the Z axis, take out the bit, sharpen, reinstall, start the spindle again start again MACH 3, that`s why I dont include the spindle controls on my CAM program, even the Z zeroing sensor or even the XYZ limit switches I took them all out, it`s no use to me since im programming CAM with precut materials, so im zeroing the spindle it`s either on the plastic jigs or the material itself so all the sensors are useless.

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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    I know this might not help at first but what you should be building comes down to what your expectations are. I suspect that most people expect a bit of precision when milling aluminum which requires a stiffer machine. Your small work area is a huge advantage in this regard as it means cheaper materials all around even aluminum. I still don't recommend aluminum due to its high cost but the idea here is that it is pretty easy to create a stiff stand when you only have a 12" wide work area to span.

    In any event working with steel implies having at least some tooling to work with it properly or a willingness to adopt some of the non machining approaches to leveling and squaring. Your best bet if you are tool poor is to enlist a machine shop for some aspects of the build and use non machining techniques for the rest of the machine.

    Do realize that some things don't need to be addressed right away. For example a router will work for awhile even if it is less than ideal for working aluminum. This saves you the time for a large machine tool control cabinet build.

    In any event, considering your work area size, I suspect the best approach would be to implement a moving table design. This is the easy way to a stiff and accurate machine tool.



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    Yup I totally agree with you sir wizard, I know the structure in this kind of machine is not really that stiff but the the number one "trade secret" as they say on making things on this machine is to cut it in paper thin order, in that way it does`nt need to be that stiff to do the job, for a hobby machine that does`nt count on time deadlines or time limits then I think it`s all right, on aluminum materials I used 0.2mm on each pass that`s even thinner than paper, so if I have a 3mm aluminum material to be cut, it needs to make 15 rounds to completely cut the design, sometimes I even use 0.1mm on the much more harder materials.



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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    For leveling and squaring aluminum materials I used the same machine but using this 2 flute expensive bit, put my clear set of goggles for a spraying spree.



    Using only the jog movement and cursors on MACH 3, sometimes I use a USB joy stick to monitor closely on the material, no programs needed, I made it like somewhat a manual refacing router, on that triple tree what I did was I clamped the sides of it, install the 2 flute carbide router bit, set the jog mode to 20%, zero on the tip of the uneven aluminum material then start scrapping X & Y with goggles on of course hehe, that`s why it had a perfectly flat top on that aluminum, I never really measured the Z axis, I just feel and hear it that if it`s braking a little on the spindle motor I press UP a little bit then start scrapping again the X & Y, there`s a high frequency tone generated on this type of motor scientifically it`s a frequency motor, it`s like a different higher frequency AC motor not 50/60 HZ, I made it sure not to alter the tone of the sound of the motor so that im not stressing it in the middle of the job.

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    Default Re: Information Overload! Quick Question on where to start given my use, thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by KH0UJ View Post
    Yup I totally agree with you sir wizard, I know the structure in this kind of machine is not really that stiff but the the number one "trade secret" as they say on making things on this machine is to cut it in paper thin order, in that way it does`nt need to be that stiff to do the job, for a hobby machine that does`nt count on time deadlines or time limits then I think it`s all right, on aluminum materials I used 0.2mm on each pass that`s even thinner than paper, so if I have a 3mm aluminum material to be cut, it needs to make 15 rounds to completely cut the design, sometimes I even use 0.1mm on the much more harder materials.
    Yes one can do that but you end up going through tooling pretty fast. On the other hand you don't loose as much when sharpening.

    In any event my point is that the original poster wants to build a relatively small machine. The big benefit for him here is that the machine can be very stiff at relatively low cost. A stiff gantry beam covering 12 inches is much cheaper than a beam covering 48 inches and delivering the same stiffness. A small machine might not be for everybody but there are real advantages with respect to cost and performance.



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    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    Yes one can do that but you end up going through tooling pretty fast. On the other hand you don't loose as much when sharpening.

    In any event my point is that the original poster wants to build a relatively small machine. The big benefit for him here is that the machine can be very stiff at relatively low cost. A stiff gantry beam covering 12 inches is much cheaper than a beam covering 48 inches and delivering the same stiffness. A small machine might not be for everybody but there are real advantages with respect to cost and performance.
    All great points. Been watching a lot of YouTube. Reading here and searching for parts. I actually have a bit of a compromise. A lot of the parts I want to make are only 6 inches square. Plan is to just buy the 3040 and get making now. That will get my feet wet right away. Then, start compiling parts for a bigger, stiffer build.

    Thruth is these builds take a long time. A cheaper option gets me going right away.

    I also have a buddy who is currently picking up a 15k plasma cutter down south. So once I know what it can do I'll start planning a build around plate and tube steel.



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