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Thread: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

  1. #37
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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Haha, well we don't always have earthquakes !



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    For many people, with limited tools, MDF is much easier to work with, and cheaper than most alternatives.
    At my local Lowes they sell MDF pre-treated and pre-cut to height: https://www.lowes.ca/building-suppli...hickness/1-in/. I tend to favor this solution because it uses factory edges on the long edge of the ribs and spars. Ditto for the cover plates, or skins, because they ought to be dimensioned and surfaced at the factory.

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    That's why 10-12 years ago, everyone was making MDF machines.
    This makes it sound like the time for MDF has passed ... which is likely true but some guidance would be appreciated.

    I'd like to try to do stiffness and defection analysis of different sized MDF ribs and spars and compare that to a similar structure of extruded aluminum. My bias is that aluminum extrusion is used for convenience and other factors that have nothing to do with building a well engineered structure. Well engineered means the choice of materials is in line with the requirements for strength and the structure is appropriate for required stiffness.

    http://www.ce.memphis.edu/7117/notes...strucutres.pdf

    It could be that extruded aluminum has superior strength and pre-made systems such remarkable stiffness, well beyond anything that is likely to be made with MDF, that it's not worth the time to examine. Am I trying to boil the ocean by not falling in line?



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by manofmanyhats View Post
    Nice work!

    I wonder how your machine compares to a shapeoko. It seems like it would be at least as rigid for a fraction of the cost.
    Hi Manofmanyhats, the Shapeoko was my main inspiration for this build, however i disliked their aluminium rails as steel is a lot more rigid for a fraction of the cost and is also very freely available, unlike their custom extrusions. In terms of rigidity i think it should compare to a shapeoko judging by how far i can push the cutting bit by hand compared to how far Winston Moy (a youtuber) can push the bit on his Shapeoko 3, but I have no proper way of testing it. I don't think that much of that flex is from the steel tubing, but in the linear bearing setup and just general loose bolts and imperfections from my cutting of the MDF panels so i think a lot of the slop could be rectified.

    Very good but £60 only!! I don't believe you. Can you list items and prices please.

    Cheapest nema 23 kit on eBay is £85. But fair play I suppose all in you probably could make that for £200.

    As someone mentioned tho is that Mdf doesn't really meet the requirements of the challenge being its no good in tropical areas.
    Hi Jon.N.CNC, sorry if i was unclear but the mechanical side of the build was £60 (i could've been clearer on my original post). This is a short summary of my costs, not including the electronics, spindle or bed: steel tube=20, wooden frame=15, skateboard bearings=5, 18mm MDF=5, GT2 belts and pulleys=10, M8 threaded rod and nuts=2, Z axis rods were scavenged from an old table football table, a few quid for miscellaneous parts that I had in hand. The electronics are 4x NEMA23 steppers, Arduino Uno running GRBL, a 2m542 stepper driver and 3 other cheap unbranded Chinese drivers. The MDF can be sealed or replaced with any other weather resistant material for a little extra cost.

    Good job! I'd like to learn how you got things going so inexpensively because I will probably have very litte budget remaining after buying a Chappell aluminum square, square fence, and optical center punch from Lee Valley Tools.
    Hi Volvox311, I didn't bother with any expensive tools, my philosophy was to make nothing fixed so that everything can be adjusted if it is inaccurate and as i used no glue/welding it all can be repositioned if needs be. I'm also 16 with no job, so even if i needed those tools there would be a slim chance of me being able to afford them so I just work with what i got.

    Two questions :

    1 : That trajectory planner looks familiar, is it Turbo CNC ? I loved Turbo, 3 second boot to machine operational, great features, lack of constant velocity toolpath was the killer for me.

    2: Is that job held down by duct tape ??? Awesome !!!
    Hi Epineh, Nope i was using UniversalGcodeSender, but still need a proper CAM software so i might try that out, ive been using Easel to generate the Gcode and then sending it using UGS, but i have already come up against some of Easels restrictions and the whole setup is a bit long winded. Yep, still need to get a proper wasteboard, about half of my test cuts have wobbly lines due to the duct tape coming off but its the best i can do until i get a proper bed.

    Josh



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshMitchell99 View Post
    Hi Epineh, Nope i was using UniversalGcodeSender, but still need a proper CAM software so i might try that out, ive been using Easel to generate the Gcode and then sending it using UGS, but i have already come up against some of Easels restrictions and the whole setup is a bit long winded. Yep, still need to get a proper wasteboard, about half of my test cuts have wobbly lines due to the duct tape coming off but its the best i can do until i get a proper bed.
    Josh
    Ok, Turbo isn't CAM, just the machine controller.

    I tried double sided tape early on, the expensive stuff was supposed to be good but I wasn't all that impressed, although it really stuck to blank PCB's, so much they used to deform on removal if too much was used.

    If you want a simple fixing method, get your machine to drill/pocket a grid pattern into the bed with the correct hole size for inserts, get them from cabinet hardware type places, you screw them in and they lock into place, then have an internal thread you can use for fixing clamps, I use short pieces of thin timber with a hole in the middle, one side clamps onto the job and the other you put a packer underneath. A bolt in the middle screws into the insert. Cheap and works well, and if you happen to run into a clamp its timber so no harm done, though don't let it run into the bolt.

    Russell.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Love all the discussion. I'm currently running a 1mX1m Shapeoko2 and it's got issues with rigidity. It's just the nature of that design. My aim in building my own machine was to build something with far less flex. I think I can do that.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    This makes it sound like the time for MDF has passed ... which is likely true but some guidance would be appreciated.

    I'd like to try to do stiffness and defection analysis of different sized MDF ribs and spars and compare that to a similar structure of extruded aluminum. My bias is that aluminum extrusion is used for convenience and other factors that have nothing to do with building a well engineered structure. Well engineered means the choice of materials is in line with the requirements for strength and the structure is appropriate for required stiffness.

    It could be that extruded aluminum has superior strength and pre-made systems such remarkable stiffness, well beyond anything that is likely to be made with MDF, that it's not worth the time to examine. Am I trying to boil the ocean by not falling in line?
    I'm still a major proponent of wood construction, but I take a bit more of a high tech approach.

    My next machine is a 4x8, dual spindle router built mostly from wood. The gantry is 67" long, and MDF. I calculated the deflection at about .002" with a 200lb load. (I think, it's been a while). It's an 8" box with 1" mdf panels. But the 1" is made up of 4 laminated layers of 1/4" MDF for added rigidity. I cut the parts a about 2 years ago, but still haven't assembled it yet.
    Pics here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wo...ml#post1168468

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I'm still a major proponent of wood construction, but I take a bit more of a high tech approach.

    My next machine is a 4x8, dual spindle router built mostly from wood. The gantry is 67" long, and MDF. I calculated the deflection at about .002" with a 200lb load. (I think, it's been a while). It's an 8" box with 1" mdf panels. But the 1" is made up of 4 laminated layers of 1/4" MDF for added rigidity. I cut the parts a about 2 years ago, but still haven't assembled it yet.
    Pics here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wo...ml#post1168468
    Good to know Gerry. The only experience I have with laminated beams is from the Canadian Wood-Frame House Construction guide when I did some renovations a few years back http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/odpub/pdf...=1414012864483. Can a laminated beam like you describe be made true just with a table saw or do you recommend a planer too? For torsion box construction I'd think an accurate thickness isn't a concern. Your laminated beam idea has given me even more to think about and the url reference even more reading material.

    Quote Originally Posted by fretman_2 View Post
    Love all the discussion. I'm currently running a 1mX1m Shapeoko2 and it's got issues with rigidity. It's just the nature of that design. My aim in building my own machine was to build something with far less flex. I think I can do that.
    Considering these types of systems, and the piles of others just like them, appear in my opinion to be assembled and not engineered it's not a surprise that you come to learn "it's got issues with rigidity". Are there no simple metrics these vendors can publish to help inform consumers? It's their job for heaven's sakes!

    Last edited by volvox311; 03-30-2016 at 11:55 AM.


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    It's not a single beam. It's a torsion box, with each face being a laminated panel. I would not recommend a single laminated beam, as it will only be rigid in one direction.
    I laminated the panels for extra stiffness due to the length.
    For a smaller machine, a torsion box is fine. My current machine uses a baltic birch torsion box for the gantry beam. Consistent thickness is not usually a concern, but one side must be flat. (in most cases)


    Considering these types of systems, and the piles of others just like them, appear to be assembled and not engineered it's not a surprise that you come to learn "it's got issues with rigidity". Are there no simple metrics these vendors can publish to help inform consumers? It's their job for heaven's sakes!
    They're selling dreams. Name another product where the manufacturer informs the public that their product is inferior to the competition?

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Here's my Bulls Head sign. I was only using pine, but I did have the feed rate at 100 ipm (cause I wasn't paying attention), came out pretty good, ran a piece of MDO at 120 ipm cause why not... came out pretty good as well, but I think the glue layer caused the bit to deflect a little. I think the machine should probably run at 60 ipm on this sort of stuff and it would do fine in most wood.

    Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-vs160403-001-jpg Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-img_20160402_192142107-jpg

    Cutting Video can be seen here:


    Will try again @60 some mdf or something to see if does better.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Nice looking sign Grumpy.

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpygeek View Post
    Here's my Bulls Head sign. I was only using pine, but I did have the feed rate at 100 ipm (cause I wasn't paying attention), came out pretty good, ran a piece of MDO at 120 ipm cause why not... came out pretty good as well, but I think the glue layer caused the bit to deflect a little. I think the machine should probably run at 60 ipm on this sort of stuff and it would do fine in most wood.

    Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-vs160403-001-jpg Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-img_20160402_192142107-jpg

    Cutting Video can be seen here:


    Will try again @60 some mdf or something to see if does better.




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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    On a budget a conversion can take a lot of beating, after getting interested in CNC I decided first off to buy and convert a mini mill capable of handling a bit of steel as well as Aluminium, Wood, Plastics so purchased a Seig X1 Super LP super and set about a conversion with a bit of experience in 3d Printers Laser cutters/engravers it took me 12 hours start to finish and has been used succesfully since for stainless and mild steel, aluminium, acrylic, MDF, PLY, and is currently being used to build something with larger area. Conversion was 3 Axis TB6560 Driver Controller Board 1/16Microstep, 12-36V, 1.5A-3A,
    3 57BYGH56-401A Single-Shaft Stepper Motors 1.26Nm/175oz-in 2.8A, 24V 10A power supply with a few short pieces of 2020 an old PC case 2 Stepper motor mounts, 2 GT2 pulleys & 200mm closed belt , 2 8mm couplings. using mill itself to prepare parts.

    Total cost £580 for the mill new delivered with a few collets endmills and chuck.
    Total cost for rest £100 from Aliexpress, plus a few odds and ends cable etc.

    For a total of £680 or £700 max to allow odds I already had I reckon the machine although limited to 330 x 150 with 200mm plus on Z axis gives me more bang for my buck than anything else I have seen

    It is limited by its 5000rpm 500w brushless motor and size but can manage Stainless (just about) Mild Steel I cut my T_nuts and made a few tools, Stainless I have cut a few 12mm Bars keyways/flats for connecting etc, Aluminium it eats for breakfast, Acrylic and Timber 5000rpm not ideal but enough and it doubles as a capable drill press. I think considering price is around that of a 3020 piece of chinese junk maybe a 3040 with double the base area 1/2 the height and probably 1/10th of the ability, it would be tough to beat value for money and it is a cheap cinese machine at the end of the day but it works well.

    Modifications to machine are minimal I only drilled a few holes in some cast everything else is ready and could go back to fully manual in about an Hour doubt I have even voided the warranty.

    What do you think.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-img_0619-jpg   Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-img_0618-jpg  


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I'm still a major proponent of wood construction, but I take a bit more of a high tech approach.
    Pics here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wo...ml#post1168468
    Finished reading your thread and a couple of referenced links. Good stuff. Thank you. I think I've run into every problem you described including trying to get the CNC model to use whole number dimensions when working with metric and standard materials. Parametric modeling doesn't make the task any easier if design intent hasn't already taken this issue into consideration. Really appreciate the references to West Systems. That reference is a gold mine of information when trying to secure fasteners into wood.

    Finally learned some rudimentary static analysis. If I understand correctly, the attached results suggest that aluminum and steel have a similar deflection, at least within the ballpark, when using 30in x 30in x 18mm material and 500lbs of force distributed at the surface. MDF is two orders of magnitude worse. A good MDF torsion structure can close that gap. I may not have chosen the correct bonding model so the MDF may perform better than indicated. MDF data from here: Anyone have a nice MDF material file for Solidworks?

    Looking at the 8020 site shows that extruded aluminum has modulus of elasticity at 70,326.5 N/Sq. mm which is similar to aluminum plate so I assume they would have similar deflection. The upshot, AFAIK is that MDF can be made as rigid as aluminum extrusion through the use of good structure. The structure is likely to be bulky in comparison but the material should not be dismissed because it's out of fashion. Also, I am skeptical of the T-slot fastening system compared to alternatives that have more thread engagement. Not an expert but had to attempt some analysis to get past the overblown marketing in the "hobby" CNC space. Hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-mdf-jpg   Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-aluminum-png   Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-steel1020-jpg   Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-torsion4-jpg  

    Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!-torsion6-png  


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