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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by epineh View Post
    Cheap drill press's seem to be wobbly to start with, but hey if ya wanna give it a go !



    I only had time for a quick look, will check it out in more detail later but that looks like the idea. Yeah the Bulls sign would be a good one, it is purely to show the machine is capable, the inlay is the same concept, though it could be as simple as some lettering as far as I'm concerned, and not everybody has Vcarve, so there might have to be some g-code sharing for a test.

    Remember I only suggested the "rules" as a guideline, nothing is set in concrete, if yourself or anybody has suggestions to improve them that would certainly be a good thing.

    I know what you mean about launching into another build, I am halfway through a not so cheap router build and a Mill retrofit, starting anything else is most likely a bad idea, but what’s the worst that could happen ? lol



    Looking at your design I see a common idea for a very cheap build, a moving table, this spaces the X axis bearings/skate bearings whatever so if they can be the ...erm cheaper variety if you know what I mean

    Also the classic timber/MDF/Hardwood Ply Torsion box is always a good way for cheap rigidity.

    Cheers.

    Russell.
    I must admit I forget how tool quality has deteriorated over the years. Here in U.K £200 really wouldn't get you far at all, I don't think you could even print an entire machine with components or make an Mdf one for that. It's often cheaper to buy than build here which leads me to think adapting something that would be wobbly but is sturdy really possible on this budget.

    I look forward to finding out if anyone manages it I must admit.

    They will need to scrimp right down to the cables. Twisted pair for everything.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Locality could very much be a condemning factor in this challenge in regards to material costs.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon.N.CNC View Post
    Locality could very much be a condemning factor in this challenge in regards to material costs.
    Not just costs, for myself, I life in a tropical area, so MDF is not a good idea, with high humidity for most of the year and usually three months of more or less constant rain, bad things happen to MDF.
    I have heard of totally impregnating it in epoxy but who has the time for that ?



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by epineh View Post
    Looking at your design I see a common idea for a very cheap build, a moving table, this spaces the X axis bearings/skate bearings whatever so if they can be the ...erm cheaper variety if you know what I mean

    Also the classic timber/MDF/Hardwood Ply Torsion box is always a good way for cheap rigidity.
    Seems like the fixed gantry design forgives a lot of errors. Maybe I'm wrong.

    The plywood is Baltic Birch 30in x 30in which is marine grade. Would that stand up to a tropical paradise environment?

    Really like where this thread is going : http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...ml#post1856708

    If the learning experience from my project transitions into something truly useful I can see myself re-designing the frame using steel. Regardless of the material, learning how to drill the mounting holes with precision is a challenge. Need good reference materials that show proper technique for placing precise holes in an X Y plane, how to recover from inevitable mistakes, and how to position and align the components. Started reading "Text-Book of Advanced Machine Work" by Robert Henry Smith, and "Modern Machining Technology - A Practical Guide" by J. Davim. They are great at putting me to sleep.



  5. #25

    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Hi all, I've just finished my CNC router and in all the mechanical side of things came to around £60 (not including wood for table or spindle), it is relatively easy to make with a jigsaw, hacksaw and a drill and has a build area of probably 800 x 800 mm. I have only tested it with MDF at relatively low speeds but i think it should be able to do some harder materials as it seems to be very rigid.






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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshMitchell99 View Post
    Hi all, I've just finished my CNC router and in all the mechanical side of things came to around £60 (not including wood for table or spindle), it is relatively easy to make with a jigsaw, hacksaw and a drill and has a build area of probably 800 x 800 mm. I have only tested it with MDF at relatively low speeds but i think it should be able to do some harder materials as it seems to be very rigid.


    Nice work!

    I wonder how your machine compares to a shapeoko. It seems like it would be at least as rigid for a fraction of the cost.



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    Quote Originally Posted by JoshMitchell99 View Post
    Hi all, I've just finished my CNC router and in all the mechanical side of things came to around £60 (not including wood for table or spindle), it is relatively easy to make with a jigsaw, hacksaw and a drill and has a build area of probably 800 x 800 mm. I have only tested it with MDF at relatively low speeds but i think it should be able to do some harder materials as it seems to be very rigid.


    Very good but £60 only!! I don't believe you. Can you list items and prices please.

    Cheapest nema 23 kit on eBay is £85. But fair play I suppose all in you probably could make that for £200.

    As someone mentioned tho is that Mdf doesn't really meet the requirements of the challenge being its no good in tropical areas.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    This is an interesting thread. While I’m not interested in building a CNC Router right now, it has piqued my engineer’s curiosity. What I think is needed is a clear set of judging criteria. So here is my two cents worth.

    First, what will be judged? My thoughts are that it should be the machine structure, minus electronics and motors. The reason I say that is that there is a definite cost/risk relationship for the electronics parts for these types of machines. What I mean is that you can buy something from an eBay seller in China that looks and is specified the same as a one that can be bought from a US dealer for a fraction of the price. What you are doing is taking a risk that it is the same as the one that can be returned if it craps out. So I would propose specifying a standard electronics package for a sizing and pricing standpoint in order to take the risk/cost/quality factor out. The builder could use any electronics they choose, but some deviations would incur penalties. So if the spec electronics package includes single stack NEMA 23 motors and the build uses NEMA 34 motors, then a cost penalty would be incurred, for instance. I would propose that the judging criteria be cost, ease to build and performance.

    I think the Omni machine is a very good baseline. Subtract the cost of the spec electronics package from that and that is your baseline judging cost. Other things that affect cost are location and season (for lumber). This is the part that would take some work. Lumber would need to have a standard price so that a machine built in Paris France can be compared to one that is built in Paris Texas. The same is true for other parts. Otherwise, regional differences in costs of various parts will skew the results. Once the cost of a given machine is calculated, it is divided by the baseline and multiplied by 100, to give a score. Outside work should be charged at a standard rate such as $75/hr with a 1 hour minimum. The idea is that anyone, even someone who doesn’t have a friend with a Haas VMC, could duplicate the effort for a similar cost.

    Ease of building would entail what tools and skills are needed to build. The baseline would be built completely with commonly available hand tools such as hand drills, jigsaws, hacksaws, files, etc. I would include some fairly common tools such as a drill press, chop saw and table saw in that list. These I would include mainly because they are time savers. They don’t do things you can do with other tools, they do it faster. Welding equipment and skills would incur a penalty. Specialized wood and metal working equipment would also, such as lathes, joiners, planers, milling machines, etc. These could be categorized with a point value for each. The project would start with 100 points and the list of tools used, specialize tools would be subtracted from the score. The final score would be what is left over. An estimate of time taken to complete might be incorporated in this, as well, such that more complex designs would have a penalty.

    There have been several good tests for performance thrown out already. I would propose progressively more aggressive cuts in aluminum until the machine deflects enough to lose a set amount of accuracy in the cut, the cut chatters severely or the machine fails. Also, a hole could be cut and checked for deformation and size compared with programed size. These are simple tests that require no specialize CAM software and give some idea of machine rigidity, backlash and accuracy.

    Overall, I think judging something like this would be fairly difficult, so whoever takes it on should be aware of that. I think it would be an interesting way of giving someone who is thinking about building a machine a more objective way to rank cost, ease of build and performance. The above is food for thought to come to an objective way to judge a given machine design.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    I would propose progressively more aggressive cuts in aluminum until the machine deflects enough to lose a set amount of accuracy in the cut
    I don't think the proposed machine would have any business cutting aluminum, and would likely be marginal at cutting hardwoods at decent depths and feedrates. We are talking entry level router, not milling machine.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by cjtoombs View Post
    First, what will be judged? My thoughts are that it should be the machine structure, minus electronics and motors.
    I'd be happy if people could submit accurate information about rigidity and structural performance. I'm picturing something like a formal lab experiment with method, observations, results, and conclusions. Can't find the exact thread but JerryBurks did some analysis in his http://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-wo...rum-posts.html series of posts. Some easy experiments appear to be no more complicated than hanging differently weighted things from the structure and then measuring deflection using a dial indicator.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshMitchell99 View Post
    Hi all, I've just finished my CNC router and in all the mechanical side of things came to around £60 (not including wood for table or spindle).
    Good job! I'd like to learn how you got things going so inexpensively because I will probably have very litte budget remaining after buying a Chappell aluminum square, square fence, and optical center punch from Lee Valley Tools.

    Last edited by volvox311; 03-29-2016 at 08:10 PM.


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshMitchell99 View Post
    Hi all, I've just finished my CNC router and in all the mechanical side of things came to around £60 (not including wood for table or spindle), it is relatively easy to make with a jigsaw, hacksaw and a drill and has a build area of probably 800 x 800 mm. I have only tested it with MDF at relatively low speeds but i think it should be able to do some harder materials as it seems to be very rigid.
    Two questions :

    1 : That trajectory planner looks familiar, is it Turbo CNC ? I loved Turbo, 3 second boot to machine operational, great features, lack of constant velocity toolpath was the killer for me.

    2: Is that job held down by duct tape ??? Awesome !!!



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by cjtoombs View Post
    First, what will be judged? My thoughts are that it should be the machine structure, minus electronics and motors. The reason I say that is that there is a definite cost/risk relationship for the electronics parts for these types of machines. What I mean is that you can buy something from an eBay seller in China that looks and is specified the same as a one that can be bought from a US dealer for a fraction of the price. What you are doing is taking a risk that it is the same as the one that can be returned if it craps out. So I would propose specifying a standard electronics package for a sizing and pricing standpoint in order to take the risk/cost/quality factor out. The builder could use any electronics they choose, but some deviations would incur penalties. So if the spec electronics package includes single stack NEMA 23 motors and the build uses NEMA 34 motors, then a cost penalty would be incurred, for instance. I would propose that the judging criteria be cost, ease to build and performance.
    Have to disagree on this one, the electronics will be a very integral part of the build, for instance a direct coupled small servo motor will be able to utilise very fine pitch leadscrew, basically threaded rod, with rpm range easily to 3000, this will give a 4500mm/min rapid rate, a stepper system won't stand a chance against that, and wouldn't be the correct choice for that build anyway. With costs so tightly linked the electronics and motors will be a major part of the build strategy, and resulting performance, to take them out would defeat 50% of the challenge. To try to compensate with a penalty wouldn't work either, even in the stepper world the choice of drives is overwhelming, there are several drivers that excel in the low current range that might be suitable for this. I think this challenge will require a kit of some version for the motor drives.

    Unless it is a TB6560 based design, then a plague will descend on your house, the sky will turn dark, earthquakes, famine etc...



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by epineh View Post
    Not just costs, for myself, I life in a tropical area, so MDF is not a good idea, with high humidity for most of the year and usually three months of more or less constant rain, bad things happen to MDF.
    I have heard of totally impregnating it in epoxy but who has the time for that ?
    Do you have 2 hours? That's all it really takes. After you cut all your parts, you brush a coat on all the edges, and then use a paint roller to coat the faces. Lay a $3 sheet of polyethylene sheet on the floor and place the coated parts on it, and they won't stick to it.
    This has the added advantage of making the MDF much easier to paint.
    It will add $50-$100 to the cost, though.
    For many people, with limited tools, MDF is much easier to work with, and cheaper than most alternatives.
    That's why 10-12 years ago, everyone was making MDF machines.

    Gerry

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by cjtoombs View Post
    I would propose progressively more aggressive cuts in aluminum until the machine deflects enough to lose a set amount of accuracy in the cut, the cut chatters severely or the machine fails.
    Second ger21 in that aluminium isn't a criteria for this build, we are going to have enough trouble getting decent(I'm being generous here) feedrates and rigidity, without bringing aluminium into the mix.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Do you have 2 hours? That's all it really takes. After you cut all your parts, you brush a coat on all the edges, and then use a paint roller to coat the faces. Lay a $3 sheet of polyethylene sheet on the floor and place the coated parts on it, and they won't stick to it.
    This has the added advantage of making the MDF much easier to paint.
    It will add $50-$100 to the cost, though.
    For many people, with limited tools, MDF is much easier to work with, and cheaper than most alternatives.
    That's why 10-12 years ago, everyone was making MDF machines.
    Fair call, but I just really don't like the stuff.

    Though in its defence I have used a 10mm piece (untreated) for a bed top on my machine, with a grid pattern drilled through and inserts placed in the hardwood ply base underneath, the idea being the MDF could be removed after a while when it was damaged from use or swelled, and its remained there quite happily for a good few years now.

    Last edited by epineh; 03-30-2016 at 07:51 AM. Reason: the reason


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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by epineh View Post
    Unless it is a TB6560 based design, then a plague will descend on your house, the sky will turn dark, earthquakes, famine etc...
    Sure, drag the climate in your area back into the discussion again.



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Haha, well we don't always have earthquakes !



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    For many people, with limited tools, MDF is much easier to work with, and cheaper than most alternatives.
    At my local Lowes they sell MDF pre-treated and pre-cut to height: https://www.lowes.ca/building-suppli...hickness/1-in/. I tend to favor this solution because it uses factory edges on the long edge of the ribs and spars. Ditto for the cover plates, or skins, because they ought to be dimensioned and surfaced at the factory.

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    That's why 10-12 years ago, everyone was making MDF machines.
    This makes it sound like the time for MDF has passed ... which is likely true but some guidance would be appreciated.

    I'd like to try to do stiffness and defection analysis of different sized MDF ribs and spars and compare that to a similar structure of extruded aluminum. My bias is that aluminum extrusion is used for convenience and other factors that have nothing to do with building a well engineered structure. Well engineered means the choice of materials is in line with the requirements for strength and the structure is appropriate for required stiffness.

    http://www.ce.memphis.edu/7117/notes...strucutres.pdf

    It could be that extruded aluminum has superior strength and pre-made systems such remarkable stiffness, well beyond anything that is likely to be made with MDF, that it's not worth the time to examine. Am I trying to boil the ocean by not falling in line?



  19. #39

    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by manofmanyhats View Post
    Nice work!

    I wonder how your machine compares to a shapeoko. It seems like it would be at least as rigid for a fraction of the cost.
    Hi Manofmanyhats, the Shapeoko was my main inspiration for this build, however i disliked their aluminium rails as steel is a lot more rigid for a fraction of the cost and is also very freely available, unlike their custom extrusions. In terms of rigidity i think it should compare to a shapeoko judging by how far i can push the cutting bit by hand compared to how far Winston Moy (a youtuber) can push the bit on his Shapeoko 3, but I have no proper way of testing it. I don't think that much of that flex is from the steel tubing, but in the linear bearing setup and just general loose bolts and imperfections from my cutting of the MDF panels so i think a lot of the slop could be rectified.

    Very good but £60 only!! I don't believe you. Can you list items and prices please.

    Cheapest nema 23 kit on eBay is £85. But fair play I suppose all in you probably could make that for £200.

    As someone mentioned tho is that Mdf doesn't really meet the requirements of the challenge being its no good in tropical areas.
    Hi Jon.N.CNC, sorry if i was unclear but the mechanical side of the build was £60 (i could've been clearer on my original post). This is a short summary of my costs, not including the electronics, spindle or bed: steel tube=20, wooden frame=15, skateboard bearings=5, 18mm MDF=5, GT2 belts and pulleys=10, M8 threaded rod and nuts=2, Z axis rods were scavenged from an old table football table, a few quid for miscellaneous parts that I had in hand. The electronics are 4x NEMA23 steppers, Arduino Uno running GRBL, a 2m542 stepper driver and 3 other cheap unbranded Chinese drivers. The MDF can be sealed or replaced with any other weather resistant material for a little extra cost.

    Good job! I'd like to learn how you got things going so inexpensively because I will probably have very litte budget remaining after buying a Chappell aluminum square, square fence, and optical center punch from Lee Valley Tools.
    Hi Volvox311, I didn't bother with any expensive tools, my philosophy was to make nothing fixed so that everything can be adjusted if it is inaccurate and as i used no glue/welding it all can be repositioned if needs be. I'm also 16 with no job, so even if i needed those tools there would be a slim chance of me being able to afford them so I just work with what i got.

    Two questions :

    1 : That trajectory planner looks familiar, is it Turbo CNC ? I loved Turbo, 3 second boot to machine operational, great features, lack of constant velocity toolpath was the killer for me.

    2: Is that job held down by duct tape ??? Awesome !!!
    Hi Epineh, Nope i was using UniversalGcodeSender, but still need a proper CAM software so i might try that out, ive been using Easel to generate the Gcode and then sending it using UGS, but i have already come up against some of Easels restrictions and the whole setup is a bit long winded. Yep, still need to get a proper wasteboard, about half of my test cuts have wobbly lines due to the duct tape coming off but its the best i can do until i get a proper bed.

    Josh



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    Default Re: Cheap DIY Router Challenge !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshMitchell99 View Post
    Hi Epineh, Nope i was using UniversalGcodeSender, but still need a proper CAM software so i might try that out, ive been using Easel to generate the Gcode and then sending it using UGS, but i have already come up against some of Easels restrictions and the whole setup is a bit long winded. Yep, still need to get a proper wasteboard, about half of my test cuts have wobbly lines due to the duct tape coming off but its the best i can do until i get a proper bed.
    Josh
    Ok, Turbo isn't CAM, just the machine controller.

    I tried double sided tape early on, the expensive stuff was supposed to be good but I wasn't all that impressed, although it really stuck to blank PCB's, so much they used to deform on removal if too much was used.

    If you want a simple fixing method, get your machine to drill/pocket a grid pattern into the bed with the correct hole size for inserts, get them from cabinet hardware type places, you screw them in and they lock into place, then have an internal thread you can use for fixing clamps, I use short pieces of thin timber with a hole in the middle, one side clamps onto the job and the other you put a packer underneath. A bolt in the middle screws into the insert. Cheap and works well, and if you happen to run into a clamp its timber so no harm done, though don't let it run into the bolt.

    Russell.



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