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Thread: L3viathan's Steel Router

  1. #101
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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    I've been cleaning the years of grease and oil off the mill for the last week or so, and it's looking surprisingly good. I hooked it up to a static phase converter, to run the spindle/feed for a few seconds to make sure the thing even worked, and it all seems in order. I have a 10HP rotary phase converter I will be wiring up, and running everything off that. The 3HP static converter would only start the spindle in the slowest gear, although I have a feeling I wired it wrong. This mill has two motors in it, both I believe are 3 phase, however the electrical cabinet has a single phase transformer in it...no idea what it's for? I have an electrician that knows his way around these machines stopping by in a few days, so hopefully he can explain. In the mean time I had some help taking the VERY heavy table off, and getting it into an electrolysis tank I rigged up.



    I have some tooling on it's way, and will order a DRO soon (i'm thinking about this one).



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    I just got my 10HP rotary phase converter wired up and running. I was rather surprised; the idler is whisper quiet, but the magnetic contactor buzzes loud enough to drive me crazy. It seems louder than it should be, as the contactor on the mill is hardly noticeable. I've been reading online, and the popular advice is that the shaded ring is missing or bad. Guess i'll have to open it up and have a look. One of these days, I'll get around to actually starting my CNC build, I swear!



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Quote Originally Posted by l3viathan View Post
    I just got my 10HP rotary phase converter wired up and running. I was rather surprised; the idler is whisper quiet, but the magnetic contactor buzzes loud enough to drive me crazy. It seems louder than it should be, as the contactor on the mill is hardly noticeable. I've been reading online, and the popular advice is that the shaded ring is missing or bad. Guess i'll have to open it up and have a look. One of these days, I'll get around to actually starting my CNC build, I swear!
    That is very possible. The relay could also be dirty not allowing the armature to close up properly. The age of the machine probably indicates that you will be force to buy a new relay anyways.



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    That is very possible. The relay could also be dirty not allowing the armature to close up properly. The age of the machine probably indicates that you will be force to buy a new relay anyways.
    Yeah, I shouldn't play with things that I know little about. I took the magnetic yokes out of the contactor in the RPC, and cleaned them up a bit, as they were rusted on the contact surfaces. That made things worse, and it rapidly engaged/disengaged until I think it blew a fuse before I could hit stop. I'll take another look at it today, not sure if I put it back together wrong or what.

    Luckily, the electronics in the mill are all good, and working properly even though they are from 1970 (or maybe because they are). Getting the mill running has been taking quite a while, because while the machine is in fairly decent shape given it's age, moisture got to the the ways in places, and so I've been hand scraping them to get them serviceable again.



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    Cool Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    The RPC is fixed and running; I'm not 100% sure what happened, but one of the secondary fuses blew and so the start contactor wasn't dropping out like it should have and blew one of the main fuses. I'm guessing that the contactor chattering from all the corrosion might have been the cause. Replaced the fuses, and cleaned the contactors, and it's much quieter now, and starts the idler easily. Also wired the mill in, and it starts and runs in all gears without hesitation. The spindle sounds nice and smooth, which is one less thing to worry about. I'll finish the ways up this weekend and get the table back on, then work on the grinder while I wait for my DRO to arrive.

    I'm sure nobody can tell, but i'm jumping for joy right now!



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Quote Originally Posted by l3viathan View Post
    Yeah, I shouldn't play with things that I know little about. I took the magnetic yokes out of the contactor in the RPC, and cleaned them up a bit, as they were rusted on the contact surfaces. That made things worse, and it rapidly engaged/disengaged until I think it blew a fuse before I could hit stop. I'll take another look at it today, not sure if I put it back together wrong or what.
    Relays can damage themselves fairly quickly in chattering. The chattering can be caused by external factors or the relay itself. I've seen more than a few relays literally melt themselves down from the coils being switched excessively. Usually that is caused by the device driving them going bad. However really old relays can fail mechanically and melt themselves down also. Sounds like you have relays in really bad condition, if you do put new ones in make sure there are no external factors causing the problem.

    Luckily, the electronics in the mill are all good, and working properly even though they are from 1970 (or maybe because they are). Getting the mill running has been taking quite a while, because while the machine is in fairly decent shape given it's age, moisture got to the the ways in places, and so I've been hand scraping them to get them serviceable again.
    To be honest a lot of the stuff from the seventies wasn't all that great. We use to use three phase drives that where late seventies to eighties tech and they constantly required repair. You could of course repair them fairly easily but in comparison the reliability of three phase drives these days is pretty good. Actually exceptional, often thought they aren't worth fixing. It is pretty much the same with servo and stepper drives. Analog servo drives where a pain to install and maintain back then we had a fairly extensive PM program to tune the amps, clean the tac's and so forth. These days we have machines with 6 axis under CNC control with only one drive failure in 15 years and very little PM related work as far as the motors and electronics go. Huge difference!



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    Relays can damage themselves fairly quickly in chattering. The chattering can be caused by external factors or the relay itself. I've seen more than a few relays literally melt themselves down from the coils being switched excessively. Usually that is caused by the device driving them going bad. However really old relays can fail mechanically and melt themselves down also. Sounds like you have relays in really bad condition, if you do put new ones in make sure there are no external factors causing the problem.
    When I first powered the RPC up, the contactor that holds the start capacitors in the loop (Allen Bradley 709-BOA103 in the center), was buzzing pretty badly, and blew one of the secondary fuses (missing one on the right side of the pic below). That meant the contactor was only getting half the voltage the coil needed the second time I started it. I didn't realize the fuse had blown though, so starting it the second time to take measurements resulted in the chatter due to the contactor not having enough voltage to actual stay engaged, this blew one of the primary fuses. The mains contactor (Allen Bradley 509) on the lower left corner has a light buzzing, so I'll clean that up too before I start using the RPC to any degree.



    I took apart the the 709 and the upper contacts had some arcing on them, but some very light sanding with 1800 grit cleaned them up, the magnetic yokes were taken out and lapped lightly to remove the corrosion on their surfaces as well. This stopped the buzzing, and it runs great now. I've started and ran the RPC several times, and ran the mill through it's speeds without any issues, so I'm hoping that it will continue working well for some time.

    The contactor in the mill itself is a Westinghouse A200K1CAC, and it had issues with the static phase converter because I wired the generated leg to the controls transformer instead of one of the single phase legs. The generated leg was too weak to engage the 120v coil, so engaging it manually ran the mill, but only in low speed. If I had switched the wires around, it very likely would have worked better.

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    To be honest a lot of the stuff from the seventies wasn't all that great. We use to use three phase drives that where late seventies to eighties tech and they constantly required repair. You could of course repair them fairly easily but in comparison the reliability of three phase drives these days is pretty good. Actually exceptional, often thought they aren't worth fixing. It is pretty much the same with servo and stepper drives. Analog servo drives where a pain to install and maintain back then we had a fairly extensive PM program to tune the amps, clean the tac's and so forth. These days we have machines with 6 axis under CNC control with only one drive failure in 15 years and very little PM related work as far as the motors and electronics go. Huge difference!
    I agree on that regard. I normally wouldn't hesitate to replace old electronics with something more modern (if they weren't working), as the long term reliability of the machine is worth it. Although in the case of this mill, it would cost more to directly replace (contactor/relays, etc.) the electrical components than the mill is worth. If they died, I would likely be further ahead to get a different mill, or perhaps get multiple VFDs.



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Really like this design! seems like a lot of thought has gone into it. Especially like your Z-axis! Any recent updates on the build?

    You reference that you based a lot of the design off of a Datron M8 cube. Mind me asking in how went about that? My online searches of that device only shows it in their enclosure so it's really hard to see how things are built 'under the hood'



  9. #109
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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Quote Originally Posted by CanonGuy View Post
    Really like this design! seems like a lot of thought has gone into it. Especially like your Z-axis! Any recent updates on the build?

    You reference that you based a lot of the design off of a Datron M8 cube. Mind me asking in how went about that? My online searches of that device only shows it in their enclosure so it's really hard to see how things are built 'under the hood'
    I know what you mean by not finding much information about the Datron machine out there. I found a PDF download (page 7) from their website that had an FEA image of the Z-axis, which gave me some inspiration. I've also watched every Youtube video I could find on that machine in slow motion to get some insight how it's put together. Here are some images I gathered that informed my design:







    I have a rather large collection of images that I took ideas from but these were rather significant influences. I have about a week left before my DRO and replacement crossfeed handwheel arrives (it was broken beyond repair when I got the mill). Other than that, the manual mill is ready to go, and I should be able to start making parts for the CNC fairly soon. I've also been disassembling the surface grinder for repairs, as it needs more restoration than the mill did.

    When I started this build, I was planning to have more than a few of the parts done by a machine shop. After getting some quotes, I realized that for most of it, it would be cheaper to get my own mill. I was even thinking about doing some Youtube videos documenting the making of this CNC build. I know I enjoy watching the videos of others in their builds.



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Quote Originally Posted by l3viathan View Post
    I know what you mean by not finding much information about the Datron machine out there. I found a PDF download (page 7) from their website that had an FEA image of the Z-axis, which gave me some inspiration. I've also watched every Youtube video I could find on that machine in slow motion to get some insight how it's put together. Here are some images I gathered that informed my design:


    I have a rather large collection of images that I took ideas from but these were rather significant influences. I have about a week left before my DRO and replacement crossfeed handwheel arrives (it was broken beyond repair when I got the mill). Other than that, the manual mill is ready to go, and I should be able to start making parts for the CNC fairly soon. I've also been disassembling the surface grinder for repairs, as it needs more restoration than the mill did.

    When I started this build, I was planning to have more than a few of the parts done by a machine shop. After getting some quotes, I realized that for most of it, it would be cheaper to get my own mill. I was even thinking about doing some Youtube videos documenting the making of this CNC build. I know I enjoy watching the videos of others in their builds.

    That FEA diagram was certainly quite hidden! nice find!

    I'm sure we all have an 'inspiration' section on our harddrives. On that note, Hurco has some good images of their double column behemoths; here. I've been studying these as well. Obviously it would be scaled down :-)

    You should totally put up some youtube videos of the build! There's really not a lot of DIY CNC videos online, at least for machines I would deem, 'done right' most are of shapeoko machines and the like :rainfro: I would even like to see some videos in how you designed it, etc, I think that'd be cool! Could also do a video going through the model, etc. I personally am struggling with the learning curve of CAD before I set out on the build.



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    I've gotten the mill mostly cleaned up and working. I hooked the wiring up temporarily to test the machine, but I need to get the wiring done proper. The DRO arrived a few days ago; I'm just waiting on some tools I ordered (transfer punches, metric taps, etc.) so I can get it mounted. I also got the new (used) handwheel for the crossfeed. It's a vintage Walker Turner table saw handwheel, but it had the right bore, and looked better than the new cast iron ones off Ebay. A bit more cleaning to do around the base, but I'm getting closer! There is still some staining on the table after electrolysis, but the cast iron is flat and smooth, so i'm not going to worry too much about it. The RPC idler in the background will get a rubber pad to sit on before it sees any more use.





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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Hows this build going? Eager for updates



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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Quote Originally Posted by CanonGuy View Post
    Hows this build going? Eager for updates
    I've been quiet on the progress, because there hasn't been much. An unexpected change of jobs, and a serious loss in the family have kept me out of the shop for months. I didn't get heat in the shop before winter set in either, so the temperature has been a deterrent on it's own. I have been been building up tooling for the manual machines though...

     

    I'm not sure the Van Norman can swing that 12" facemill (65lbs), but the boring heads, and tool holders have me set for tooling.



  14. #114
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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Got the large piece of plate I had laser cut this week, and i'm impressed with the results.



    I had these cut at Gehman Iron in PA, and I have to say they were great to work with. It was a really fast turn-around, for a really good price. I can highly recommend them if you're in southern tier NY or northern PA.



  15. #115

    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Hey there! Any update on the build on these last months?



  16. #116
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    Default Re: L3viathan's Steel Router

    Quote Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
    Hey there! Any update on the build on these last months?
    I wish I could say there has, but another job change at the end of 2018 has completely obliterated any free time I might have had. 70-100 hour weeks for the last year has prevented me from having any sort of "life", let alone hobby. The project is not dead, just hibernating until I can get to something resembling normal working hours.

    I've still been acquiring tooling (endmills, drills, taps) and metrology equipment (calipers, indicators, micrometers, large granite surface plate, gauge blocks) from auctions. I'm hoping to get back at this in the next few months.



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