My turn to show of. machine 2 pics

[wcarrothers1]

Hello..

Well has been a long time in comming and is not totaly complete but mostly there.

Here are some pics of my 5+ x 10' dual Z router mill. Much bigger and beefer then my first 4x8.

This one sports a larger Ekstrom Carlson vfd spindle, Moog brushless AC servos, Dynomotion Kflop/Kanalog control, Plantetary gear reduction and rack & pinion drive on all the axis, real smooth (and large) linear rails... Over all more heavy duty build then my first machine... I have 1 more set of the 133" large rails with 4 more trucks which might end up on machine 1 as a upgrade... (unless some one makes me an offer I can't refuse, (I'm in michigan by the way))

Have been tuning the machine off and on when I've had time and it is very impressive. Mach with parallel (like machine 1 with geckos and DC servos) is cool. The smooth stepper is kinda cool, if nothing else a pretty easy drop in device.. But Tom's Kmotion / Kflop board is THE coolest thing. You want IO to build the coolest pendant, ya got it. You want to create specal procedures or functions for your machine, you can inbed it in this controller your self. Just a WAY super cool device. Worth every penny of what he charges for it!!!.. Please excuse how cluttered my control box looks. Stuffed in there are 4 Moog L180 controlls, power supplies, the Kflop/Kanalog, line reactors and other items... Still have to go back and streighten that up just a bit.

In anycase enjoy the pics...

b.

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[giz]

Great to see a project with AC servos. You'll have to update us once you have them tuned and running!

What the specs on your rail? I am in the market for size 35 or larger in the ~10' length.

[ger21]

Is that thing in your basement??

If I don't know C, is the KFlop hard to customize?
How are you handling the two spindles in Mach3, with the KFlop. DO you know if the KFlop plugin supports the SwapAxis() command?

I need to compile a big list of questions for Tom before I pull the trigger. Sounds encouraging, though. When it's fully operational, I may need to make a road trip to check it out. If I can ever get a day off.

[wcarrothers1]

Ya one thing tom is great with is support. I often wonder about people like art and now tom at what point they will reach burn out. Right now he seems in his prime though so probalby lots of time left... hopefully!!!..

I don't have a spindle on the second axis. I was thinking I would just have it operate on axis A and for the programs which I want to use A I would just go through and adjust it. Also perhaps I can figure how a second axis is supported in Vectric aspire.

The C is pretty well documented and some really great talent are on the list. I'm sorta a programmer in my day job although I'd bet tom would not believe that given some of the sample code I've sent him with questions.

I would say that getting the K up on Mach is not quite as drop in as the SS but I would also say the extra capiability and customiziability will make you wonder why you didn't try it sooner.. I run my 4x8 machine 1 parallel most of the time even though I have an SS attached to it. If I had a K attached to it I'd be using it rather then paralle for sure.

Yes that is in my basement, Built in place. That is what I lilke about this design. I could dissassemble if I had to to get it out. although I have a walkout basement.

What you also don't see is my CNC briderport which is also down there.

b.

[wcarrothers1]

I don't have all the part numbers I collected on the stuff I built this machine with me now.. But the rail trucks are STAR 1623-312-313-314-10. The flat mounting face is about 2.75"x5.25". The rail it self is about 1.25" wide by 1.25 tall. 133.75" total length. Big stuff. Ended up being overkill on the X but just right on the Y. I got 6 lengths back in the day when collecting for this build. And I have 2 full ones left with 4 extra trucks.

Also looks like I'm going to end up with a couple extra size 7.5 7:1 thomson planetarys, a larger 4:1. Seems planetarys are getting harder to find on ebay these days..

Based on what I paid for them I'd have to get around 1.5k for the pair of rails with 4 trucks, Don't think anyone could get rails like this complete with trucks for that price anywhere.. But will probably keep them for spairs or to mod my machine 1 which has v bearings riding on square steel stock. Though in truth, been running that machine since 2006 and it has worked very well the way it is..

B.

[wcarrothers1]

Would be an honor to have you over some time GER.. I've been looking forward to a visit for a while!!... TO have GER over to see my stuff, Well how many CNCZoners could say that!!!..

Actually at this point the machine is fully moving and tuned pretty good. Seeing this machine was an on again off again process over the last year building tuning took way longer then it should have.. But other then some minor stuff really just have to put the table in at this point, Working on the dust collection drops now though seeing I could not get the MDF sheet today.

Just finished having the machine lay out all the drill holes for table attachment. Kinda interesting to see a machine complete it self..

Going to finish this table same as the last. steps include, laying out the table attachment holes in the metal. Then laying out the first layer of MDF, Drilling the attach holes (machine does it). then having it mill out the relief at each hole for the T bolts, Bolting the first layer on, Run the spoil bit to surface, Lay next layer of MDF, Drill and bolt down. Then will have it run around and cut the T rail slots..

b.

[CNCMAN172]

wcarrothers1 ,

Wow you did a great job on this build. I am building a large machine in the garage 5' x 6' with a steel frame and it uses 5' precision ballscrews for movement. I have large Panasonic AC servos 1HP for the X,Y axis. I am preparing to build the gantry and would like to see a few pictures of how you did the ends that ride on the linear rails. I also have large linear rails and they are positioned just like yours versus the more common approach which rotates them 90 degrees. When I got the specs from THK it showed the style bearings that I purchased off ebay were designed to have the force come down vertically unlike some of the nicer rails like SHS that can be positioned in any orientation.

I would have loved to be able to get my frame in the basement but I do not have a walk out basement. LOL The frame is extremely heavy probably 1200 pounds and has a 3/4" aluminum top. I just installed one of those hanging gas heaters in my large garage and started insulating as it is already turning cold in Ohio.

Russ
CNCMAN172

[wcarrothers1]

I did have a build thread on the early stages of making the frame and how I trued up the rectangle tube surfaces before mounting the rails.

The tubes were run through my conveyer drum surface sander severa several several times to get the surface flat and square with the other side before bolting on the rail. Had I not done that the rails would not have had a good surface to mount (as square or rectangle tubes are not exactly square or flat for that matter.)..

In anyase I would not look "forward" to having to move this machine. But in theory it could be done as the table is 1 piece, and then the 2 sides are separate pieces. Basicly bolted togehter with the larger 1/2" thick plates under the table along with other struts.. My other machine is basicly the same design only smaller and with a less ridgid gantry. Only real concern is the width of the table might make it dificult to get that part out the door. But I'm stuck here for another 10+ years anyway so I'll have to worry about that some other time. If I had to cut the table and make a new one to go with the machine it would not be the end of the world. But think I would sooner bust out the walk out door rather then rebuild the table..hehe

b.

[wcarrothers1]

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...d_started.html

is the orignal build thread for this machine.

sure did take a long time to get to this point. I suppose I would have spent more time on it and gotten it done faster had I not already had machine 1 running well. I only got the VFD spindle and control for this machine a month or so ago anyway so even if it were done it would not have had a spindle anyway..hehe

b.

[CNCMAN172]

Thanks, I will take a look at your build. I have a nice drum sander but I would not trust it to cut the aluminum tubes to be square, I have measured them and if I took off .015 I could make them true, as least it would appear that way using a precision square and a Mitutoyo caliper.

I am going to take them over to a local machine shop and have them true them up as this will not take them long on a big machine just a light facing, hopefully they don't want too much for that effort.

I have some extremely heavy extrusion that is going to be the main gantry, got it at a scrapyard and have never seen stuff this heavy but now I need to determine the best way to support the two ends. The spindle motor is a 7.5HP Colombo which probably weights 60 pounds, this is larger than I really need but I found it brand new on ebay 4-5 years ago and have been buying stuff for this build for years. My small router is currently about 2x2 and uses a Bosch 2.5HP router and honestly it works pretty good, but the noise is extreme and even with ear protection this is too much noise for long durations. I purchased a 4HP water cooled spindle but now I am looking for a good water pump that will work outside of the coolant bottle. I want something really reliable, the noise of the new spindle is just amazing and it really has some power. The mounts are all made so it is really to put on the smaller machine. All the prices on ebay have really climbed over the last three years so finding parts has become a huge challenge.

Thanks for the link to your build.

Russ

[wcarrothers1]

Ya. I got both the 10:1 reducers on my z's for 50 bucks. Kicking y self for not getting the couple more the guy had at the time.

I got that right angle apex 14:1 for 145.00. And it was new in the box and one of the <4 arc min. Really have not seen any good hardware ion the bay for the last year..

7.5 Colombo.. That is heavy. Trouble with that will be if you Sontag have 3 phase the biggest vfd you can get for single phase will toto 4hp or so. The seamens I have for my bigger ekstrom os the biggest single phase. I like automation direct vfd s better then the seamens micro master. But they only go to 3 hp single phase.

I have a rotary converter for the bridgeport but didn't want to have to run it all the time the cnc is going..

Aluminum um should need less trueing then the steel I would think.

B.

B.

[wcarrothers1]

Tossed the board down on the table and decided to check the tram and that went pretty well. I didn't think it would be quite so square out of the box.

Then checked depth at a few spots on the table with the digita gage. And that was impressive to.

Should only have to take off a very small amount spoiling the machine to get it right.

For this build I'm using some T bolts as hold downs screwed from the underside of the table. Machine one used shallow headed hex screws threadded into the 2x2 beams. I didn't want to go through the trouble of aligning all these holes and threading them to. So hopefully this will be easier. Only down side is you have to purchase short bolts for holding the initial board down then longer once the second ply is installed.

last pic is of machine 1 with the machine 2 boards cut out.

And also a pic of machine 2 drilling and pocketing the T bolt holes for itself.

b.

[CNCMAN172]

Well, being that close is really impressive, I need to get one of those pro trams they look pretty nice. The Mitutoyo that reads in 10,000th is also a nice unit. You must have done a pretty exceptional job to be that close out of the gate. Love your machine, very nice.

Yeah, I picked up the Colombo 7.5HP because it was new never used and did not want to replace super expensive bearings in a unit. I did build my own three phase rotory phase converter out of a brand new 10HP three phase motor but it works awesome. Hooked up the AB 1336 VFD and it drives the Colombo smooth as silk. Amazing I can detect no runout on the new Colombo but when I check my new Chinese 4HP water cooled unit which is suppose to have Germany bearings.... LOL it measures .001 runout which is double what they publish in their specs. I guess you get what you pay for several people report loosing the Chinese units in about a year, the bearing just die.

Russ

[wcarrothers1]

Ya I was surprised it was that close. I've never really checked the tram on machine 1. Got that gage for tramming my bridgeport. Really a must have tool if you have a bridgeport.

The way I build the machine sides and align the table has something to do with how square it all comes out. Typically I assemble the legs and weld them up clamped together next to each other. And the table support bars are also put on right next to eachother (welded on). Then once separated and the gantry is up the distance from gantry rails to the table support is already known = .

Anywho. Ya the machine ran around and did all those pockets very nicely. This one is able / alowed to move it self (rapids) alot faster then machine 1 does. And if you happened to get into a pinch point on this machine, well it would be pretty much all over given the power of these motors. You can see I already have 1 estop button on either side of the machine on the front. Plan on adding ones along the side and also one on the gantry it self just incase.

b.

[wcarrothers1]

Just surfaced the table. Sure liking the kflop/kmotion control.


B.

[CNCMAN172]

Wow, I picked up the KFLOP about two years ago for my current build and hooked it up to the Panasonic Servo and Driver and it drives it great. I actually loved the automatic tuning feature in the Panasonic driver so I let the driver close the loop. Did you have the KFLOP close the loop on your AMPS. The panasonic support that interface and I will probably do this once I mount the motors and stuff on the table. Wow winter is coming on fast. LOL

Russ

[wcarrothers1]

Not sure if your servo drives were step/direction or Analog (voltage) signal..

My Moog drives use a +- 10 v signal for drive direction. sorta a downer initially seeing I was used to Parallel port drive to geckos. But as with many builds the price was right for these drives and servos so I figured I would venture into new territory. Becides GER pointed me to the K, and said it would probably work and ya can't get much more sure then that..hehe Tom at Dynomotion also believed it would work well. I figured if they didn't work good enough, I would go back to gecko and DC servos and use the K for control (which would still be 100 times nicer and cooler then parallel machine 1) so would not be much a loss.. Having all the IO and internal programming ability is cool to..

Right now I have them set up internal to the drive in what is called the speed loop. So the commanded voltage, what ever that might be equates to a given desire to achieve/maintain a speed. This leaves the drive to control a bit more internally so things are a bit smoother. The other method is constant current, where the voltage signal relates to an amount of power to move. That worked as well but not quite as smooth as the speed loop since that left it all up to the K and Kanalog to make adjustments in speeds. Due to the latency between voltage in, movement and reporting of that movement back to the K for adjustment using the speed loop turned out better. In that mode the drive it self has some knoledge for possition holding with out any outside signal.

I'm sure if I knew enough tuning wise I could get either method to work. So not the fault of the K that I went that way. But the important thing is, It works.

I surfaced the entire table running speeds > 175ipm feed. Something I could never do with machine 1, well I would not get smooth results anyway..

Simply put this machine can get up and move. Sorta was the objective using such oversized servos. But still getting used to it. Machine 1 is nice but I don't often cut at speeds above 90ipm..

Anyway just finished the table and will post some pics. Although not really that interesting to say it now had a table..

b.

[CNCMAN172]

Yup, my Panasonic drivers actually support all three modes, including Step and Direction. I have run them Step in Direction off of a parallel port for years and they work fantastic. The standard +-10V interface is also there and when you use that interface KFLOP must close the loop.

I did run some simple tests to see how fast I could spin my servos and see if they maintained position and I was pretty happy. The challenge when having KFLOP close the loop is you had to manually adjust the gains. When I let my amplifiers close the loop directly they have built in automatic tuning algorithms and they can tune to the given servo in about 1 minutes which is amazing and it is right on the money.

Russ

[wcarrothers1]

With the Kflop alone, It is basicly a step and direction controller. I added the Kanalog in order to get the analog output for control of my drives. Either would, far as I know, be closed loop I think. Most people don't need the Kanalog piece (if they were running geckos for example) in that case they could ditch the parallel port and with a little tuning they all of a sudden you have a great control setup with tons of I/O and customized.

b.