Homemade CNC router for knife handles?


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    Default Homemade CNC router for knife handles?

    I'm a knifemaker (www.kosterknives.com) interested in exploring CNC-made handles. I've been dissatisfied with the CNC companies I've tried to work with so far...mostly because of tooling/setup costs. I want to just do 20 or so at a time which is a lot for a custom knifemaker and not so much for a CNC shop. So, I think they are upcharging me to make me "go away" and frankly, it's working.

    I do all my own 2D CAD and have a buddy help me with the 3D IGES stuff. I'd be willing to learn whatever software I needed to.

    I really just want to find a way where I can cut handles out in a consistent way...in larger quantities.

    I've been doing some reading on the DIY CNC Router projects and am very excited because it seems the way to go (vs. a dedicated CNC). The largest piece I'd need to cut from would be 12"x15"x1" - so I could even build a small one if it might save a few bucks. That's all I would use it for - cutting out knife handles (3D milling/shaping...not just profiling) from sheets of canvas micarta, small boards of cocobolo and individual blocks of Ironwood.

    I am a bit leery of just buying a bunch of parts only to have it take up a lot of time I could be making knives...and maybe not go together properly, etc.

    Got any suggestions?

    Is there anyone that builds one from a kit for sale? I'd probably rather go that route than do it myself.

    Am I chickening myself out? Is it not that hard/time-consuming to build?


    Let me know what you guys think.

    Dan

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    Member jalessi's Avatar
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    Dan,

    For the money you cant beat K2CNC.

    They sell there 2514 25" X 14" router frame for $1,295.00 on eBay, you should be able to complete it for less than an additional $1000.

    http://tinyurl.com/yjc7er3

    Welcome to the Zone,

    Jeff...

    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.


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    I would think for a knife handle you would want a 4 or 5 axis machine. Unless it's purely 2.5d, it would take too long to do 20 at a time. Come to think about it, I remember a knife maker using a 5 axis machine. You may want to check out Doughty drive 4th and 5th axis's. http://www.doughtydrive.com/products.html

    Maybe get the k2 cnc machine as Jeff is suggesting, a 4th axes indexer, and 5th from doughty drive. You probably would be looking at 4 or 5k once you are done but you could make some incredible handles. I think at minimum you will need a 4th axis.

    I just checked out your site. Nice knives! The Damascus Bowie is incredible.



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    are the knives assembled as two halves? if so a regular 3-axis might suffice. romaxx has a smaller machine that is ready to go. a bit more, but it would be ready to go out of the box.



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    Member jalessi's Avatar
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    It looks like the majority of Dan's knife handles or scales are flat on the back side. If that is the case, they would only require a three axis CNC.

    If the back side requires machining then a simple fixture would be much cheaper and a whole lot easier to program verses the complexity of a five axis machine.


    Jeff...

    Patience and perseverance have a magical effect before which difficulties disappear and obstacles vanish.


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    Correct - I think I only need a 3 axis machine. There is contouring in the handle but a 3 axis should be able to handle it - from what I've seen on cnc router videos.

    If my best option is to buy one already built, then I guess I'll do it. Am I going to end up spending ~2000-2500 for it whether I build it myself or not?

    I was hoping for a DIY kit recommendation or better yet, someone who puts kits together.

    But I'm so entralled with the idea that I'll probably get one no matter how I have to get it. Just need to save up the funds.


    Thanks for the kind words on my work.


    Any more suggestions?

    Dan

    Last edited by pendentive; 03-15-2010 at 10:56 AM.


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    Registered FandZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendentive View Post
    Correct - I think I only need a 3 axis machine. There is contouring in the handle but a 3 axis should be able to handle it - from what I've seen on DIY videos.

    If my best option is to buy one already built, then I guess I'll do it.

    I was hoping, though, for a DIY kit recommendation or better yet, someone who puts kits together.

    Thanks for the kind words on my work.

    Dan
    I'm thinking once you see the amount of tool changes you will have to do etc, a 4th axis indexer will seem mandatory. It just makes since to me. but I'm not a machinist or that cnc experienced. But adding a 4th axis isn't that hard or expensive. Something you could think about down the road.

    Have you seen the kits offered by fine line automation? It's not as good as k2 cnc, but it is a capable machine.

    Here is a link to their thread and has all the info on the machines and user experiences. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73670



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    Quote Originally Posted by FandZ View Post
    I'm thinking once you see the amount of tool changes you will have to do etc, a 4th axis indexer will seem mandatory.
    How does a 4th axis get rid of tool changes??

    Gerry

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    Here are some pics - you guys know best - let me know if a 3-axis or 4-axis would be better for creating handles like these (from 2 different knives):







    The plan is to cut them from a sheet, leaving 0.100" thickness (not cutting all the way through the board) and then cut them out on the bandsaw.

    The important part for me is having them consistent. I plan on doing light finishing on them after I put them together....which, incidently, will be done with corby screws that require a counterbore (seen in the pics above). This is the only place that needs good precision (0.005"). I plan on routing them a tad oversize (0.030") which I will then clean up at the belt sander.

    Let me know if this makes sense - or if there is a better way.

    Dan



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    Default Those seem like something that can be cut

    with a 3-axis mill. I don't see the need for a 4th axis. But you should think about how they will be supported in the sheet - you don't want them being cut loose and flying around. Some small tabs that keep them connected would be a good thing to add - they are easily cut off and the stubs sanded away.

    Andrew Werby
    www.computersculpture.com



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    Quote Originally Posted by pendentive View Post
    The plan is to cut them from a sheet, leaving 0.100" thickness (not cutting all the way through the board) and then cut them out on the bandsaw
    See quote above - I do plan on leaving them on the sheath (no loose parts). I was going to cut it down to almost bottom and then leave "tabs" like you say. I'll come back in with a bandsaw to finish the profiling.

    Dan



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    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    How does a 4th axis get rid of tool changes??
    Correct me if I’m wrong, but the angle of attack can continually change with a 4th axis. Once you start looking at the time it takes to do certain jobs (like the knife handle with 2d and 3d characteristics) at an acceptable resolution with just an end mill vs. an end mill and a ball end mill, the end mill and the ball end mill will take less time to get the same resolution with a tool change. If you do it with a 4th axis, then the angle of attack can change and you can get better and faster results using just an end mill without a tool change or just a ball end mill. Plus you have 2 sided machining.

    I really don't see how it wouldn't be more practical to do it on a 4th axis with fixtures. Time, tooling, end results, the whole shebang.



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    A 4th axis is great if you want to pay for the cam program to run it. However for semi-production things like this, an easy way to do this would be to cut all the parts with one tool with the parts in a fixture, then change tools and cut all the parts with that tool. The 4th axis would become necessary (or rather would pay for itself) if you were doing parts that had more complex geometry, but these all appear to be parts that could be flipped over.

    Another option might be to profile all the parts out of a sheet of wood, then have a vacuum fixture to hold two parts, each part facing opposite directions, that left one half of each part exposed for machining. Machine one side of the first part, flip it into the other half the of the fixture and mount the next part in the first nest and machine both sides in one program. Continue rotating the parts in until all are done.



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    You can do what you want with a 3-axis solution, no question. It could possibly be done with a singe 1/8" ball end mill, but I would suggest a 1/4" roughing mill first, then a nice slow final pass with the ball end.

    You could be up and running, including ALL the required drives and motors, for $1200 with a Fireball V90 from Probotix. This will probably be your "cheapest" way to test if this is a path you want to go. It could last you months, or you may outgrow it quickly, but the skills you learn on it will be 100% transferable to whatever you may want to step up to. Downside: The machine is made of MDF. Before you laugh to loud, this isn't all bad, and for cutting wood knife handles, it is more than up to the job.

    See here:

    http://www.probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit/

    E-mail Len if you have any questions.

    Once you have this, or any other system, up and running, you need to tackle the rest of the steps in the chain. You will need to take your CAD models in to a CAM package. These run from free to $20k+. I use BobCAD, and I find it suitable for my needs. You can get what you need for $600 (it will likely list for $2000-3000, but they are pretty easy to talk down - don't give them your real phone number, and hang up if you don't get the deal you want).

    So, your CAM package will change your CAD model in to GCode, which is what the CNC needs to run. So your next step is to choose the software to drive the machine. If you know Linux, I would suggest EMC2, as it is fully featured, and it is free. If you don't know Linux, I would avoid adding it to your list of things to learn, and buy a seat of MACH3 for less than $200. This is also full featured, and runs in Windows (you will need a parallel port for the most economical way to run it).

    So, finally, you will want a computer that is dedicated to the CNC. This can be any old Desktop machine, 1 GHz or higher should be fine (even a Pentium 4). It should have Win95 or newer - you do NOT need a new computer! Actually, many new computers no longer have a parallel port, so you will be best off with something 2-4 years old.

    You have a pretty big hill ahead of you, but you can scale it! Getting a machine is only one step in your upcoming learning process, so take the advice you get, and make informed decisions as much as possible.

    Ditch the whole idea of 4th or 5th axis, this is WAY overkill for what you want to do, and is MUCH more expensive than the posts above would seem to indicate (the software to create true 4th and 5th axis code starts at $10k except for one open source program out there that is WAY difficult to learn).

    So, you can get to your end goal for under $3000 "all in", but there are more pieces to the puzzle than you have indicated concern for so far. The sky is the limit on how much you "can" spend on a useable setup, so set a budget, and weigh what you "want" versus what you "need"!

    Best of luck!

    In the mean time, if you want me to cut some parts for you, e-mail me at mike@mcpii.com. I'd be happy to turn your IGES files in to real parts for "much less" than traditional machine shops are likely charging you. If you want a sample of the output a V90 could provide you, send one of your files to the e-mail above, and I can cut one out of some 2x4 stock for you to take a look.



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    I think that from your pictures you would be just fine witha a 3 axis cnc machine and a little time from someone who has mad knife handles on a cnc machine double sided sticky tape is your friend make an aluminum plate that you can bolt to your table with a couple of good edges to indicate and pick up xy0 on clean the plate with acetone stick some tape on your knife scale and roughly position it where it goes hit the go button and stand back id use a 1/4 ballend for most of that after the ifrst part you will have an indention where the plate was cut on the next scale you have a perfect reference point to lay your next scale you should be in full production in a few hours



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    Take a look at MeshCAM. It'll create your g-code for $175.

    Gerry

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    I did this years ago with my homemade 3-axis router



























    And the knife and its sheat were stolen from my car last friday


    Pablo

    ● Distribuidor Syil en Argentina ● "www.syil.com.ar" ●


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    Quote Originally Posted by PEU View Post
    I did this years ago with my homemade 3-axis router


    And the knife and its sheat were stolen from my car last friday


    Pablo
    I hope the thief cuts his finger off using it. On the upside, you get to make another one



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    Quote Originally Posted by mcphill View Post
    You can do what you want with a 3-axis solution, no question. It could possibly be done with a singe 1/8" ball end mill, but I would suggest a 1/4" roughing mill first, then a nice slow final pass with the ball end.

    You could be up and running, including ALL the required drives and motors, for $1200 with a Fireball V90 from Probotix. This will probably be your "cheapest" way to test if this is a path you want to go. It could last you months, or you may outgrow it quickly, but the skills you learn on it will be 100% transferable to whatever you may want to step up to. Downside: The machine is made of MDF. Before you laugh to loud, this isn't all bad, and for cutting wood knife handles, it is more than up to the job.

    See here:

    http://www.probotix.com/FireBall_v90_cnc_router_kit/

    E-mail Len if you have any questions.

    Once you have this, or any other system, up and running, you need to tackle the rest of the steps in the chain. You will need to take your CAD models in to a CAM package. These run from free to $20k+. I use BobCAD, and I find it suitable for my needs. You can get what you need for $600 (it will likely list for $2000-3000, but they are pretty easy to talk down - don't give them your real phone number, and hang up if you don't get the deal you want).

    So, your CAM package will change your CAD model in to GCode, which is what the CNC needs to run. So your next step is to choose the software to drive the machine. If you know Linux, I would suggest EMC2, as it is fully featured, and it is free. If you don't know Linux, I would avoid adding it to your list of things to learn, and buy a seat of MACH3 for less than $200. This is also full featured, and runs in Windows (you will need a parallel port for the most economical way to run it).

    So, finally, you will want a computer that is dedicated to the CNC. This can be any old Desktop machine, 1 GHz or higher should be fine (even a Pentium 4). It should have Win95 or newer - you do NOT need a new computer! Actually, many new computers no longer have a parallel port, so you will be best off with something 2-4 years old.

    You have a pretty big hill ahead of you, but you can scale it! Getting a machine is only one step in your upcoming learning process, so take the advice you get, and make informed decisions as much as possible.

    Ditch the whole idea of 4th or 5th axis, this is WAY overkill for what you want to do, and is MUCH more expensive than the posts above would seem to indicate (the software to create true 4th and 5th axis code starts at $10k except for one open source program out there that is WAY difficult to learn).

    So, you can get to your end goal for under $3000 "all in", but there are more pieces to the puzzle than you have indicated concern for so far. The sky is the limit on how much you "can" spend on a useable setup, so set a budget, and weigh what you "want" versus what you "need"!

    Best of luck!

    In the mean time, if you want me to cut some parts for you, e-mail me at mike@mcpii.com. I'd be happy to turn your IGES files in to real parts for "much less" than traditional machine shops are likely charging you. If you want a sample of the output a V90 could provide you, send one of your files to the e-mail above, and I can cut one out of some 2x4 stock for you to take a look.

    mcphill - thanks for the reply - that's exactly what I am looking for.

    I don't mind the learning curve. I'm looking to have this set up "this year"....LOL (vs "next")

    I just want to know if what I'm looking for exists and is feasible/reasonable.

    Looks like it is.




    I plan on cutting handles out of micarta - which is pretty dense/tough. Cuts well with carbide tools.

    Anyway, I am thinking I will cut a bunch of "left-side" handles out of a 12"x12" piece and then put another 12"x12" piece for the "right side" handles. No need to double-stick tape it.

    I have a large bandsaw that I can resaw my wood pieces into bookmatched slabs which I can then machine the same way (left side, then right).

    The trick, I think, is getting a good zero. I'll get the machine built first and then worry about that.

    Thanks for all the help, guys!

    Any more tips/suggestions are still welcome! Especially from any DIYers or owners of the FireBall V90 CNC Router.


    mcphill - thanks for the offer to cut stuff for me. I'll send you an email.



    Dan



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    Pablo - looks like a lot of fun. Sorry it got stolen!



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Homemade CNC router for knife handles?

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