Inexpensive spindle with ATC.
As many of you have found out, the round bodied chinese spindles are vanishing due to their marginal quality in favor of a square bodied spindle with significantly higher quality.
Since I received mine directly from the manufacturer and bought more than one, I paid less but I brought the information to you in another thread along with an ebay seller who will provide you the spindle at a reasonable/fair price.
Since my first cut with the new square bodied spindle, I have completely swore off the round bodied spindle in favor of this new beast solely based on it's performance to cut steel.
What you may not be aware of is that in part, I am responsible for some of the changes which brought about this square spindle design and now ebay is flooded with them and now you might get a cheap copy from another manufacturers who cut corners to make more profit and you end up with a substandard product.
I can run the air-cooled square spindle all day long at 5,000 RPM and the motor doesn't over heat (actual experience), the round bodied air-cooled spindle would over heat if I ran it at below 9,000 RPM (burned one up running at 6,000 RPM).
These spindles seem superior to the round bodied spindles and don't seem to suffer from over heating problems so water cooling isn't a requirement.
I bought the 3KW square spindle with dual ceramic bearings at each end and as far as I am concerned, it's worth the extra $40.00 to buy it with them.
The ATC spindle project involves a square bodied spindle with an ISO 20 socket making it an ATC spindle and should be available in 2.2KW, 3KW and 4KW versions starting around $1700.00 USD (subject to change).
The 2.2KW version will use an ISO 20 tool holder with an ER16 collet and the 3KW and 4KW version will use an ISO 20 tool holder with an ER20 collet.
A shift to producing a prototype and testing has occurred and it is my understanding that this process will take about 1.5 months before a final revision product has been realized and tooling for production will begin after that.
I'm hoping in the next two to three months the ATC spindle is completed and ready to ship, I should be the first to receive one and will be able to provide details and information.
If the ATC square spindle is anything like the current square spindle quality I might consider distributing these ATC spindles here in the US/Canada considering the cost of the currently available (cheap) ATC spindles is more than $3200.00 USD for a Columbo spindle (1.5HP) and an Avenger spindle is far too expensive to even consider unless your pockets are really deep.
CAUTION NOTICE FOR NON-ATC SQUARE SPINDLE
While the current 3KW square spindle is going for around $508.00 USD, this spindle does not have ceramic bearings, to get one with ceramic bearings cost about $50.00 more (I paid less than $400.00 USD including shipping to USA for a 3KW square spindle with ceramic bearings).
Someone I know has already experienced a cheap copy when they thought they were purchasing the good spindle for $30.00 less from another seller so make sure you are buying the good square spindle motor, ask to see pictures of the actual item you will receive and who the manufacturer is and do not rely on what is posted in an ebay auction, it's sad to see cheap copies of a good product coming from the same city.
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I'm interested in a reasonably priced ATC spindle. Last time I looked at a Colombo ATC spindle, the price was way too far out of my budget. I'm interested to see what you can come up with. It might be just the thing I'm looking for for my new CNC I'm dreaming about.
As with the current square spindle that took 5 months to make it to market, delays are probably inevitable as they work out design flaws but with the motor is already done it's just a matter of completing the ISO 20 socket assembly to replace the existing ER20 collet assembly (it's removable).Originally Posted by Hyrum R
The only bigger issue I can for-see is that the current customer changes their mind about obtaining ATC spindles and then it's stuck waiting for a new customer because they wont proceed if I am the only other customer who wants 5 or 10.
It's a numbers game and companies in china wont produce a product on their own dime.
dwalsh62
I have been looking into a new spindle but all the one I've seen do not recommend cutting steel.
Can you shed some light on this with you experience in steel cutting,What have you been cutting, tool used, speeds, rpm ,depth of cut, amount cut
Any help in this would be a great help
Thank
Russell
www.vapourforge.com ..................I recycle electrons.
Cutting speed, not sure how to calculate it but I was told it was set around 160 to 170 FPM (how I have no clue) in the cut file for the material I was machining (customers files and material).
I've been using 2400-3000 RPM (customer recommended 2600 RPM) with a 0.250in 4-flute end-mill and cutting 0.025in per pass (customer claimed 0.025in to 0.030in was sufficient for the tool and material) with coolant/lubricant and didn't break a tool.
Makes a small pile of metal sand every time I have to cut out a couple of parts from the 0.125in x 4.0in x 24.0in piece of galvannealed steel (new one for me but customer provides it).
On my own jet engine fuel pump project (engine used a dyson hand-held vacuum impeller but someone else made most of the parts) I tried a 2.00in face-mill (0.5in shank) at 2000 RPM on a 1.0in x 4.0in x 8.0in piece of mild steel (all I had at the time) but I had to replace the cutting tips often (five on it) since they would chip and then make lots of growling noise until I switched back to the 0.250in end-mill and did it the slow way, took a while to make a 0.625in x 4.0in x 8.0in block with a 0.0625in x 0.0625in recess in a 1.0in x 1.25in area for a silicon seal.
When I can figure out how to take off lots of meat I'll work on shaping the the pump but for now it works, just larger than needed and cosmetically dull.
Someone also told me I should make a zero plate, gave me a "TouchTouch.txt" file but that is all I could get out of them and I'm not sure what is in the plate since I never got an more details or instructions on what to do with the .txt file or if I even really need it (attached for reference/information).
The file looks like a visual basic style program that looks like its sposed to auto set zero on Z.
given its VB I'll presume its for mach.
www.vapourforge.com
I've got so much on my plate right now and not enough hours in a day so I'm looking for some help making and testing some parts.
Most of the parts are made out of aluminum and shouldn't be too difficult to produce so if anyone in the US has some time and can help it would go a long way to concluding the design so that the manufacturer can tool for production.
Drawings are already done in AutoCAD 14 as DWG.
Well some parts are ready to be manufactured and prices negotiated which seem to be very attractive.
Product Description Price (USD) Minimum Order (pcs)
BT20-ER20 ToolHolder 36.50 100
Pull Stud (ball type) 3.10 500
Now I can move on to other parts.
Anyone good at 3D drawings who can redraw some drawings for me?
Some of my drawings don't look so good in 2D and I'm no artist.
That is a Visual Basic auto tool zero file for Mach3. There are little rectangles in the text that looks like carriage return locations. That's why it looks like continuous text in MS Notepad.
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
dwalsh62
If you want some 3D rendering of your parts let me see your drawings and if it will not take to long I will run them up for you.
Russell
www.vapourforge.com ..................I recycle electrons.
Hi Russel, thank you, sent information in a PM for the air-cylinder.
Hi Dave,
I have some free time right now and could probably help with some of your 3d drawings.
I would also be interested in looking at parts you need to have made. I have a shop and need to get some work.
Thanks,
Eric
If your trying to cut mild steel with a 2" facemill instead of 2000 rpm try something more in the line of 330-400 rpm. Feed at somewhere between 2-4ipm to start. You may find you have better luck. If your using coated carbide inserts you may be able to as much as double those feeds and speeds.
Judleroy
Eric, helping with drawings would be good but as nice as the offer is for making parts, I'm not offering work, what I am requesting is some assistance in building and testing small assemblies to make sure they will work with the ATC spindle currently being designed, namely the air cylinder, I've got my hands full with fans, clamps and drawbars that I just don't have the time to do all the pieces.
The only thing I can offer you is that when all is said and done and the spindle goes into production you can get one at cost as compensation for assisting in the development of the ATC spindle.
-- Dale
OK, got some help from a HAAS employee on making the gripper (tricks of the trade) so I machined out a couple on friday and dropped them off for cold-hardening so hopefully I'll be able to get them early in the week and test them.
I thought they used small 3mm shaft cutting tools with a 1.5mm bit on the tip and worked inside a 6mm dia hole, I wasn't aware that the internal profile was actually machined at a 3deg. angle using a 5.5mm end mill and rotating the material.
Before cutting the actual piece out of spring steel I made some measurements by trying it out on a piece of nylon and was surprised to see that a 5.5mm tool would cut a 9mm profile without moving the tool at all and that moving it .25mm while drawing it out made the cut straight and it never contacted the the 7mm DIA hole it was working in from the rear.
I wish I had been given that piece of information when I starting making this piece, it would have saved me a lot of time and grief.
Eric (or anyone else), I'm looking for some assistance.
If you have time, I need a part machined (2 pieces) in aluminum, part does not appear to be complicated (what do I know), will cover cost of material and shipping too me, would like to receive the parts as soon as possible so I can assemble and test.
A 2D drawing is attached of the part, while not shown in the drawing, the two notches can have a small radius, a seat with needle and spring goes into each notch and the notch is 0.6750in wide so square corners in the notch are not a requirement as long as the stainless spring seat with needle which is 0.6250in OD sits flat there is no issue.
No drilling or taping is required and a smooth external finish is needed but no need for polishing, assembled the part is not visible.
This piece slides into a 2.8000in square ID extrusion (it is square, no radius on corners) so the piece does not need external radius.
I am expecting to recieve the extrusion on wed. so if I could get the parts shortly after that it would allow me to test it and would help me a lot.
Any changes you make to the drawing will need to be returned for the manufacturer.
While help in making and testing parts has been extremely scarce, I did get some help with 3D drawings and I've been focused on building and testing the critical components and as long as I don't experience any serious setbacks or delays, when I go to China on Jan 31st, 2011 to meet with the manufacturer I'll be bringing along the CNCZone mini-VMC with the prototype ATC spindle and some extra sub-assemblies for demonstration purposes and to aid in tooling.
The only issue I can really see is that my mini VMC is not cast as projected or that I run into some kind of mechanical issue with the spindle that I am unable to overcome before my trip.
Last edited by dwalsh62; 01-13-2011 at 03:09 PM.
I've been crushing ball clamps like candy at 95psi air pressure and I just realized a calculation error which explains why the 75mm DIA piston didn't supply enough force and the dual 70mm DIA pistons way too much.
I had been usingCode:A = (DIA) * (π) F = (A) * (PSI)
When I should have been usingvalues given in live example.Code:Rsquared = (R) * (R) A = (Rsquared) * (π) F = (A) * (PSI)
2 * 2 = 4 (Rsquared)
4 * 3.14159 = 12.56636 (A)
12.56636 * 80 = 1005.3088 (F)
(stacked 70mm pistons compensated for loss of area from rod)
2.6775 * 2.6775 = 7.1690062 (Rsquared)
7.1690062 * 3.14159 = 22.522078 (A)
14.330127 * 80 = 1801.7662 (F)
Live test measured value was 1,137.9584 (avg of 3 test).
I was shooting for a spring force of 670.00lbs (3000N) and got 1801.7662lbs (7721.8861) and at 90psi it's 2027lbs (8687N) far more than needed so I really only need a dual stacked 45mm pistons or a single 82mm.
On a sadder note, I was expecting the ATC spindle and some cast pieces to be ready for my trip to China, looks like I wont be making the trip for business purposes (to late to cancel), the cast pieces are not done and I can't get a status on the parts cause Scott is MIA and no one answers at the business.
I was thinking if I worked non-stop, I might be able to get the spindle completed functionally and fabricate the other pieces out of steel and weld it all together but when I weigh the amount of time required it's so close that any problems would cause the cancelation so I'm going to save myself the headaches and put it off, I can't reschedule the tooling and with nothing completed it's pointless to go for anything but a vacation.
For me it means that I will complete the ATC spindle when I get back and then work on a rear nylon cover and then I can enjoy the benefits of it but it would be at least another 6 months before the next tooling and if I haven't gotten board from waiting and moved on to something else I can have it produced at that time.
I do realize that people were looking forward to it but waiting for pieces that should be done and ready is the reason that the project will be shelved because I can't take an incomplete product and show that it works when pieces are missing and this might have been avoided if people offered to build and test components ensuring things were done on schedule and I got the pieces from those who were supposed to be making them so, me completing 80% of the physical work because no one else produced what they said they would and the only real assistance I received was with 3D drawings which I really didn't need as much as the parts, the project is incomplete and doesn't coincide with the tooling schedule which can't be altered and that is where things stand for now.
I THINK THE DEATH OF MY FATHER IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR DAMN ATC .
HELL NO I WOULD NOT TAKE YOUR CALL AT GRAVE SIDE AND CONSIDER THAT
JUST RUDE AS HELL!
SCOTT
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