Hurricane Lasers - Buyer Beware! Horrible experience with John Kaspar. October 2013

[Exsecratio]

We also give a 2 year warranty that exceeds the Gweike and China warranty. That costs money. We also use US optics that cost more money.

I am in a position to confirm this for people. US made optics are in the range of 3 - 5x the price of basic Chinese made stuff. As to the benefits of using them? depends what you are doing really (I use optics from II-VI InfraRed and won't touch imported optical components for anything other than playing with)

anybody who believes extra in-country support is free has never purchased from Epilog or ULS I guess While it is quite a bump, this situation with Hurricane should be looked at as part of a bigger picture, now if this was one of a considerable number of incidents then I'd be the first to say "Go elsewhere" (just not to FSE for god's sake) but in the years I've been involved with lasers (both eastern and western) I can't say Hurricane has figured on my bull**** radar worth mentioning.(some companies stand out as dire, repeatedly dire and people still buy from them for some reason)

cheers

Dave

[mtlhe]

John here from Hurricane Lasers,

Without going into too much detail of our dealings with Vocademy I would like to point out in Gene's own words above in July 25th that it would take

July 25th - Asked about getting a gray & white machine instead of shades of green to better fit with our facility. was told "roughly 3 weeks build time, 3 weeks ship time 1 week customs and 1 week assemble, test etc"

Which if my math is correct is about 8 weeks from August 1st order date or about October 1 delivery. As with any imports I always tell customers that dates are estimates as we can not control the government customs and FDA times. Especially since the government shutdown has affected many import times.

Gene could have easily accepted the machine that week and been up and running rather than cancelling the order and losing his deposit for a custom order. I will be processing his refund shortly as soon as that custom machine is sold that is not our ordinary machine which I will sell at a loss.

If anyone has questions please read our many positive comments on cnczone and sawmill creek. We can also provide hundreds of references from satisfied customers.

Thank you and have a great day!

John Kaspar
Hurricane Lasers

To John at Hurricane Lasers,
After reading this well documented thread:
I will never consider your company for anything. You are wrong and should have refunded the money in full. Your company reminds me of our government runs.
Sure your making a few free bucks on this guy but it 's going to cost you FAR more in the long run. "Lessons cost money, good ones cost lots!"

To the OP,
thank you for sharing this miserable experience that your paying for. At least others can avoid a potential problem, unfortunately at your cost. We have another business do our laser engraving. They bought a Epilog and to my knowledge are very happy and we've been happy with the quality of the engraving. Might do some research and them. Good luck with your new company.

[wklaserliu]

hi every one ,

i just here share my news, i repersent g.weike laser to share our news , hope could give some help :

Laser engraving machine|Laser cutting machine|CNC router-G.Weike Laser

chloe@wklaser.com
skype: wkquiven

[Exsecratio]

DOH!

[swarfmeister]

As for Swarf I am not sure what you are referring to regarding our Engravelab software. CADLink has been selling that software for over 25 years and it is used by many companies including Epilog for the picture software.

This is another feature that differentiates us from the other Chinese importers.

John

Hi John,

In the past CADlink does not generally support Leetro machines. The 6515 is generally considered on its way out - better to have the 6535. According to my sources there have been issues in getting the Leetro version to work. In any case, I have been burnt enough times by CAD/CAM software vendors that I don't buy anything unless I see it work on my machines and verify I am happy with it.

As far as the original issue, no question you pay for US service, warranty and the like. I agree with you it is a little strange to reject a shipment for being two days late - actually seems like chopping your own toes off to spite yourself. Perhaps the original poster was hoping things were different with a US company.

There are many challenges importing a product from China - not least of which they shut the whole country down for a week in early October for a national holiday and caused chaos on the docks. I don't know if he knew that or not. Seems like you probably made him some promises you couldn't keep as well.

As he agreed to loose his deposit already, you seem be be digging your heels in not refunding him until you sell this machine. Being in business is about dealing with difficult people at times. Taking your frustration out on them is not cool. I'm not sure I would line up to buy from someone who does that.

[reflexx]

OK. Here we go again. Below is the text of John Kaspar's latest posting on this forum, with my comments in BOLD.


While each person is entitled to their opinion all Gene had to do was accept the machine on Tuesday after Saturday event and all would be fine.
#1 completely ignore (again) my constant reminder of how important that date was. # 2 no offer to have a loaner machine. #3 awful communication AND #4 LIED ABOUT SHOWING UP ON THE DAY BEFORE!

Instead he refused delivery because it was later than he wanted.
I refuse delivery because of items #1 through #4 above AND #5 I do not want any kind of business relationship with you! Nor would I ever send customers to you.

Anyone that has imported anything knows that zero dates are in stone.
But how YOU deal with (and communicate with) your customers is 100% set in stone by you!

The machine also does not have all of our regular features and as such will command a lower price I have a school that is looking at it for the reduced price as they are not as particular.
WHAT? You told me this was a fully loaded machine! Exactly what "regular features" does it not have??? Was this another lie? Please see the invoice I have posted here and judge for yourself....

If you look at almost every other company that sells lasers they have a restocking fee or cancellation fee. This is standard in the industry.
I already said keep the damn $3,324 as you requested in order to return the balance of $10,000. But now I am rethinking this and want the total amount! "Industry Standard?" You told me the ONLY reason the $3,324 was not refundable was because of "custom paint." You just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself with every reply.

Perhaps as Joey Bag said , Perhaps Gene should have been a little more patient and reasonable about getting his refund than calling and yelling at us.
Again you ignore everything I wrote and my reasons. Plus now you accuse me of "yelling at us." I never so much as raised my voice. and how would you know, you have not accepted my calls (or called me) since October 5th!

Hopefully I will trust that the hundreds of positive reviews will out weight this one negative feed.
Hundreds? Where? Am I to assume you've sold hundreds of machines? Really? The BS is getting deeper.

As for those that say our goods are more than China, Duh! How else do you pay your staff that spends hours a day on the phone giving customer support.
"Hours a day on the phone giving customer support" Really? Not with this customer. what a lie again.

We also give a 2 year warranty that exceeds the Gweike and China warranty. That costs money. We also use US optics that cost more money.
Someone please post the true cost of these optics, I'd like to know.

As for Swarf I am not sure what you are referring to regarding our Engravelab software. CADLink has been selling that software for over 25 years and it is used by many companies including Epilog for the picture software.

This is another feature that differentiates us from the other Chinese importers.

At the end of the day Gene still needs a laser and cancelling this order for being a few days later than what he wanted and was outside my control is ludicrous.
Yes. I do need a laser and I have found a good partner company. I just need my money back from you to BUY IT! They cannot wait to have their machine at our place (and many more as we expand) and they are also reading this post. So they too will be sharing this information with others.

If he still wants the laser he can have it and not lose anything. See items #1 through #5 above, or ignore them as you have over and over.

Or I will refund him the agreed upon price and sell the laser to the school or another customer that appreciates what we have to offer.
YOU STILL HAVE NOT REFUNDED ME A PENNY! Until you do, you are an absolute liar. Please post a date when I should expect my money? I will gladly share that info the day the check clears.

Thank you to everyone for the input.
Yes. Thank you to everyone for reading this too. I'm convinced that now I should pursue the entire amount.....

[ozstockman]

I can compare US(II-VI Infrared) vs Chinese(Bill laser) optics but keep in mind that I am getting US ones through the factory and the local distributor so there should be some extra in their cost for their margins

3" FL lens, 1" diam, ET 0.16" $240(in AUD) from Infrared and $250 (in USD) from Bill laser
1.5" Si mirror, ET 0.16" $240(in AUD) from Infrared and $135 (in USD) from Bill laser

As you can see only mirrors are cheaper, the lens seems to cost even more from Chinese supplier.

I have also bought 3" lens from chinese seller on ebay. Cost me $90 but it was thinner than I need it to be.
And there is a big chance it is not 3" at all as I cannot see it working at the same FL as my standard 3" lens.

[Exsecratio]

Easiest way to check a lens...

measure the diameter

American made are imperial, Chinese made copies are metric.

This is standard in the industry.

As it happens it's not, in the UK any contract of sale not signed at the vendors premises has a 7 day after receipt of goods cancellation period (Distance Selling Regulations 2000)

Your right to cancel starts the moment you place your order and doesn’t end until seven working days from the day after you receive your goods

During this cancellation period refunds must be made in full and within 30 calender days of the notice of cancellation.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

cheers

Dave

[fizzissist]

Sorry, but this sure isn't looking real good for John.
This hurricane seems to have a distinct sucking sound..... More like a vacuum. Sucking up money.

I've never received an answer on how much John is willing to sell the aforementioned laser for. Not much of a surprise, really.
Now that we know what the laser is equipped with, and it looks to me as though it does come with "regular" features, contrary to what John claims.

I'm inclined to have one of my friends in Vegas swing by and see if the business is even open.

[Bigbird48]

I think John Kaspar and Henry Liu of Full Spectrum Laser have dinner together a couple times a week to discuss who can get the most money from their customers for nothing in return, there offices are pretty close together .

[reflexx]

Sorry, but this sure isn't looking real good for John.
This hurricane seems to have a distinct sucking sound..... More like a vacuum. Sucking up money.

I've never received an answer on how much John is willing to sell the aforementioned laser for. Not much of a surprise, really.
Now that we know what the laser is equipped with, and it looks to me as though it does come with "regular" features, contrary to what John claims.

I'm inclined to have one of my friends in Vegas swing by and see if the business is even open.

Please do. My friend in Vegas is female and I don't want to send her. If he's there, see if the grey & white machine is too! I might be out of choices as to what to do!

Hurricane Lasers
5275 South Arville #328
Las Vegas, CA. 89118

When I called a few weeks ago, the voicemail mentioned that they would be closed (Thursday and Friday) while they move to a new location. But when I visited them in August, the location was new. I don't know if this is just an old VM they didn't erase, or they have moved again. The address above is the one I went to and the one on the website: Where R We - Contact Us

Still no refund, or wire, or call, or date to expect it.

So the BBB has one prior complaint about Hurricane and it's over "delivery issues." Dated 10/24/2013 and it say's it's "resolved" This is not me! So are there others?
Consumer Complaints for Hurricane Lasers LLC - Southern Nevada BBB

So my next step is:
File a complaint against Hurricane Lasers LLC


Just learned that he might have some other very serious legal issues going on!

Gene S.

[Bigbird48]

Go to the news agencies channel 13 will investigate Submit a You Ask. We Investigate. story idea - www.ktnv.com

[fizzissist]

Just learned that he might have some other very serious legal issues going on!

I think he's got your very serious legal issue going on,,,, he just doesn't realize it yet.

Across state lines, imported goods.... Federal agencies maybe??

[fizzissist]

"After having worked at Full Spectrum Laser I can not stand when employers will lie and cheat at every turn to make a buck off of a customer."

John Kaspar | LinkedIn

.... I'd say Ryan Stinger has achieved his goal of saving over $120k in shipping costs at Hurricane Laser!... At least, he's saved shipping costs to Riverside, CA....

Ryan Stinger | LinkedIn

[joeybagadonuts]

Gene Sherman,

Do you have a written agreement or a performance bond that stipulated a guaranteed delivery date?
If you do not have a contract what grounds will you have once you have your day in court?
The dialog here won't get any of your money back and most prospective customers are not aware of the CNCZone.
How many people visit the BBB before making a purchase?
If a customer purchased a dozen doughnuts, leaves them sitting on the counter and started bad rapping me I would ignore him indefinitely.
Hell would freeze over before a refund was issued.

JoeyB

[Exsecratio]

most prospective customers are not aware of the CNCZone.

True Joey but as a business owner my biggest concern would be the "ripple effect", there will be people who hear about it second hand and don't read the full story or hear from both sides leading to them adding on their own bit (Chinese whispers), it's rare for a passed on story to end up being anything like the actual facts.

The crux is actually quite a small issue, a missed delivery date by 2-3 days but by the time it does the rounds (bad news travels faster than good) John will end up getting blamed (wrongly I may add) for everything from the great plague to assassinating Jack Kennedy.

What you end up with is people making decisions to buy / not to buy based on false information they have "heard".

Sadly there-in lays the nature of the internet (and media in general), you will only ever hear bad news repeated or as my late Father often said

"Want to know about a man's achievements? read the obituaries , want to know about his failures? read the front page"

cheers

Dave

[Bigbird48]

The thing that bothers me most here is that the man was promised a refund minus 3+k for the paint. He accepted a 3K loss and he hasn't got his refund. This seems to be fact not hearsay or blown out of proportion internet chat.

There are several other things that seem to be fact , The thing John said about the machine not having all the regular features. The invoice shows it to have all those features. What features is it missing? Why would anyone buy a machine that wasn't all there? and why would anyone sell one?

Does anyone disagree that Hurricane Laser is wrong in this matter?
Does anyone think that Gene shouldn't get his money back?( at least 10K)

[Exsecratio]

Does anyone disagree that Hurricane Laser is wrong in this matter?
Does anyone think that Gene shouldn't get his money back?( at least 10K)

I'm not in a position to comment on right or wrong (I have seen little info and only mostly one side of the story, nothing intended Gene) as to the spec, pretty much a standard machine for Weike (the options for z motor and auto focus do cost extra) but with a bit of banter you can usually get one or the other included.I don't know what the "Chiller accessory" means, if it means an additional chiller then that is also an extra but everything else is standard equipment.

Both rotarys are extras as is the longer focal length lens.

As to Gene getting a full / partial refund, again I don't know the details of conversations that have taken place BUT in the same situation had it been me selling to Gene, the moment he was unhappy (for whatever reason) I would have issued a bank transfer for a full refund.

This seems to be fact not hearsay or blown out of proportion internet chat.

"Seems" Bert, none of us can say for sure. I *believe* Gene, sadly belief doesn't confide *Fact* without full access to all the data and transcripts of any / all conversations.

I don't know very much about US law but here if a client makes public statements about a transaction as companies the Data Protection Act explicitly prevents us responding publicly with any "personally identify-able" information unless we have express written permission from them. That may be the case in the US as well, I have no idea.

Where I think John has bought himself a whole can of trouble is by not issuing a refund instantly, refunds should be based on merit and not on disposal of any material items to another customer or waiting for a potential buyer. The longer a bad situation is allowed to continue for the more damage it does. There eventually reaches a saturation point where the damage becomes self supporting and simply increases.

cheers

Dave

As an adendum, I buy all my Chinese lasers from HPC Laser Ltd LS 1290 PRO Laser engraving and cutting machine [LS1290PRO] - £6,250.00 : laser engraving machines laser cutting machines, HPC laser LTD and Chris usually takes payment when he arrives with my kit. In the 5 years I have been dealing with them I have never been waiting more than a few minutes to get a response to a call for support (and it's been some funny times of the day I have called) and the machines have been indestructible.

[mmoe]

"Seems" Bert, none of us can say for sure. I *believe* Gene, sadly belief doesn't confide *Fact* without full access to all the data and transcripts of any / all conversations.

Can you find an instance in this thread where John (Hurricane Lasers) disputes the account that Gene has provided? It seems to me that he is mostly addressing that he thinks Gene is unreasonable, not that he is lying. I tend to think that if Hurricane said they'd do something, then never made any reasonable attempts to keep the client informed when they couldn't come through, Gene's actions are not at all unreasonable. It's also not unreasonable to have expected the refund be provided in a timely manner (too late for that now). Otherwise, if John is not saying that the account is incorrect, it can be concluded that it is a factual account. At that point, you just have to decide who is being reasonable and who is not. The only inaccuracies provides so far have come from John. I don't think it's reasonable to take a month to refund 75% of a cancelled order, and I suspect that Hurricane Lasers is holding out in hopes that Gene will just take delivery instead.

[reflexx]

Gene Sherman,

Do you have a written agreement or a performance bond that stipulated a guaranteed delivery date?
If you do not have a contract what grounds will you have once you have your day in court?
The dialog here won't get any of your money back and most prospective customers are not aware of the CNCZone.
How many people visit the BBB before making a purchase?
If a customer purchased a dozen doughnuts, leaves them sitting on the counter and started bad rapping me I would ignore him indefinitely.
Hell would freeze over before a refund was issued.

JoeyB

JoeyB,

I don't have anything that states a "guaranteed delivery date". But I do have the invoice (attached above) that clearly states a ship date of 9/25. I guess he could claim that it means "ship date from China." But I bought my machine from his location in Las Vegas, so I assume that meant ships from Las Vegas. The invoice does not say FOB LA Docks, or FOB China.

My gripe was not just about delivery date, it was his actions and in-actions. That's where he failed us.


Gents,

Thanks for the support. I want you all to know that there are a hundred things I'd rather be doing than this and I know I don't have a huge number of posts on this forum (like I do on others), so I realize what I say cannot be take as gospel. My goal with posting in the first place is to just let others know what happened to me. In business, reputation and customer satisfaction is everything. I've been on the other end of a late delivery. I let the customer know WELL in advance that the equipment was not going to make it. I also made arrangements to get their job on someone else's machines, so they do not suffer loss of business or reputation. I bent over backwards to make sure my customer was satisfied and I made a very loyal customer in the process. THAT's how business is done. Almost the exact opposite of what Kaspar did.

I know that for those that find this thread (google brings you here or because Hurricane brags about the "hundreds of positive reviews"), people will read this and make their own decisions. Hurricane makes it a point of sending customers here and to Sawmillcreek (my next destination to post a link to this thread). I think some underestimate the bullhorn that is the internet.

I started the thread with Caveat Emptor (buyer beware) and that's still the case. Just letting others know of my experience. I will fight until I get my money back OR until I am out of options, and that may be the case soon.

I have had some friends do some digging in Nevada legal records and there are several very disconcerting actions happening with FSL vs. Hurricane. He may be out of money and again, instead of being honest and just telling me, he prefers silence. After going through all this, my fear now is that he might not be around much longer. I might be forced to go get "my" unwanted machine or lose everything. FML!

Gene S.