Problem- Quality questions

[rgh]

I purchased a ShopSabre a few months back. It has taken a few months to get it working...Many, Many problems with the hardware. Some of the problems may simply be my expectations, and I am trying to figure out whether I just bought the wrong machine, or if I am expecting too much from it. I have tried talking with the company with limited success, they don't seem to really know what I can expect and keep having me try things. Stated tolerances are .001 , machine is rated at 600IPM (which I know doesn't mean much)

I do fairly detailed carving work, and some engraving of letters. In engraving, if I run the machine any faster the 20IPM the results become somewhat less than desirable. (circles not round, letters slightly deformed, etc.) I use Onsrud cutters, and have tried several types to see if I can find a difference, with no effect. The machine came with RhinoCam and WinCNC. I also find that the machine chatters. This is regardless of speed or depth of cut, and the patterns also look the same and happen in the same spot. (looks like chatter, but doesn't act like chatter) Depth of cut is .125 with several passes to get through, yet chatter marks are consistent all the way through like it is a tolerance issue in the machine or program. I have had folks says they run their machines at up to 200IPM with repeatably good results (not ShopSabre, but similar price point machines) I don't know if they run the same level of detail or not, so I don't know if it is a fair comparison.

The machine is a 4896 with 5HP spindle and t/c. I screw parts to the spoilboard to prevent movement since I don't have 3 phase power to run a vacuum. (Machine uses an inverter)

With that background, what is reasonable to expect from a machine like this? Should I continue to press the manufacturer for help or is this what I should expect from a machine of this caliber. I am very frustrated and not sure what direction to take next. Looking for some advice.

[Recurve Crafter]

Boy, seeing a post like this worries me a little considering that I have a Shop Sabre due for delivery any day now, at least that is what they've kept telling me for the past 2 1/2 weeks.

When I paid my initial deposit back in early August, I was quoted a 4 to 6 week delivery, which I thought sounded pretty good.

I received a phone call from them on Thursday, Sept. 4. They said that my machine was almost complete and I needed to send them the balance of the payment. I put the check in the mail (via Certified Mail) the following day.

The following Wednesday (Sept. 10), I received another phone call from them asking if I had sent the payment out? I told them that I had and they should be receiving it soon. I also said that if they did not receive it within a couple days, contact me and I'll cancel that check and try sending them another one, just in case it got lost in transit somehow. The next day I received an email that the check had been delivered that morning. I told them if they needed to hold my machine until the check cleared, I had no problem with that, just let me know when the machine ships out.

My machine was scheduled to be shipped out Sept. 15, which was on a Monday. That day came and went with no contact from them. I waited until the end of that week to contact them because I thought they might have been waiting for the check to clear or they might have possibly been a little behind on finishing it up. Either way was no big deal.

Anyways, I emailed them to check on the machine's status and received a response that they had a bad batch of ball screws in and they were waiting for another shipment of them to come in before they could continue with my machine. I was told that my machine should then go out the following week. I told them that was fine and I would rather wait an extra week and have the machine put together correctly, especially considering the cost, which is a lot for me and my business.

I waited the following week....nothing, so I sent them an email early on Friday, Sept. 26.... no response to that email?

I decided to wait until the following Monday (Sept. 29) and just call them. During that call they said my machine was being finished up and will probably go out tomorrow (Sept. 30). It should then take about 2 days for it to get here. I told them that sounds great! I'm looking real forward to getting the machine.

I then emailed them the day it was supposed to ship (Sept. 30) to see if they did ship it out that day. I received no response to that email so I sent another email to one of the other salesmen the next day (Oct. 1).

He responded to the email late that night and said that he didn't think my machine went out that day and he would have someone call me the following morning with the status of my machine.

I got a call the next morning (Oct. 2), and was told that they were still "testing" the machine and it'll probably be shipped out the following day, which is now today (Oct. 3). She said that she'd call me when it was shipped out.

It's now about 4:30 p.m. and I haven't received my call yet?

With the way this whole process has went for me, it's not going to surprise me if the machine is not shipped out today. However, I hope that they do at least ship it out next week and that I don't have any problems with it after I get it set up.

It's kind of an uneasy feeling when they have so much of my money and keep pushing my delivery date back each week.

I was hoping that my experience with them so far was just an isolated incident. I did as much research as I could on them and from what I had gathered, they were suppose to build a pretty good machine for the money. Also, I had not seen too much negative feedback on them.

With the budget I was working with, I had narrowed down my choice between a Shop Sabre or Techno.

With the options I wanted, the Techno's price was a couple thousand more than the Shop Sabre and Shop Sabre appeared to be built well, so I went with the Shop Sabre.

If I had it to do over, I'd be tempted to go with a Techno, even though it would have cost me a little more.

If I do get the Shop Sabre in and have any trouble with it, I'm not going to be very happy about it with all the BS that I've went through so far.

I'm really hoping that I'll get it in and it'll exceed my expectations.

Sorry for such a winded post. I'm just a little frustrated at this point and wanted to share my experience.

If your machine was made that recently, you might want to look into the possibility that it may have been built with some of the "out of tolerance ball screws".

[todd71]

Originally Posted by rgh I purchased a ShopSabre a few months back.... With that background, what is reasonable to expect from a machine like this? Should I continue to press the manufacturer for help or is this what I should expect from a machine of this caliber. I am very frustrated and not sure what direction to take next. Looking for some advice.

Of course you NEED to press them. You should get what you pay for.Most likely the problem was the install. The chattering could be your machine binding. Maybe your gantry alignment is off or the Y axis slide way screws are to tight. Things have to move smoothly to cut smoothly. I do alot of 3d cutting on my SS 4896. Sometimes up to 400ipm with .500 B.E.M. with no problems. Could also be your tool path step over is to big. The tighter the step over the cleaner the cut looks. But it also increases the cycle time. That's were you have to decide weather the finish can be cleaned up faster with sand paper or if its worth the extra machine time. For out of round circles you may need them to walk you through the servo settings to see if they can recommend some adjustments that may help. That helped out after we set ours up. But the alignments need to be right and operating smoothly by hand before you adjust the servos. Don't know if this answers you question. But you need to make sure your end is done right before you blame the manufacture. If your in over their head its time to start learning. Once it starts clicking it get easier to diagnose your particular problem. I will say your tooling, unless its dull or damaged, has nothing to do with what you describe.

Good luck,
Todd
www.innovative-accents.com

[setguy]

we recently got our 4896 shop sabre with the 4 hp spindle. it's up it's running GREAT. I was getting a little "flutter" in the Y-Axis but I found the problem was when we but the Y-axis belt on, it had missed the groove for the belt and was sitting on the tooth of the pulley when we put it on which made it slack once it started running, quick fix.
we are getting a little hum in the Y-axis when the machine sits at 0,0. I figured this one out to be the Y-servo controller is set for between settings at the home position so it flips back and forth. again easy fix.

as for tolerances, it cuts what I put into it. we are running Visual Cam and it does the job. we haven't cut any true 3-d stuff yet, but it's paying for itself as we speak, something that used to take 2 hrs to do now takes 10 minutes.

as for your delivery concerns, they did the dame thing to us, the pushed the delivery date back 3 weeks on us, after the "it's going out on Monday - Tuesday - Wednesday of next week thing. And we got told about the bad ball screws and it seemed it was in testing for a LONG time. the only big difference is we held the final payment until we got a PRO number from the shipper and we did a wire transfer.

right now I am running through 1/2" MDF in a single pass at 300 ipm and 3/4" plywood at 150 ipm with 4 passes. I suggest you look in Rhino Cam (I don't know that program) and check your tolerances. we have adopted an old machinist saying here "if you don't know, at first, go slow, go shallow and adjust from there". I will say to do this with caution, we did almost start a fire on our table with an 1/8" upcut bit sitting too long. but then again sometimes you just have to screw it up to get it right.

we started playing to find the best speeds on different materials, we did scratch cuts and slowly ramped up the speeds until we felt comfortable. we can still push the machine but it's a comfort level thing.

Todd, I know you have given GREAT advise about what to do with a Shop Sabre. like the rubber blocks under the feet mod, and changing out the angle to box tubing. and I would like to thank you for all of those great tips.

It seems like there are quiet a few people who are buying/or have bought shop sabres, I was wondering if anyone has thought of starting a dedicated shop sabre forum. I think we would all benefit from that.

Randy

[rgh]

I have been pressing pretty hard on them.

Recurve crafter: If you are expecting the machine soon, you should make them get you an install manual. Their pre-install instructions don't cover some of the issues you will run into. I had to purchase a larger compressor and re-wire to keep the control box and inverter away from each other. The controller is verrry sensitive to noise. Also, if you have the tool changer, watch it. Sometimes it will change tools and take off across the table cutting through the spoil board at transfer rates (this is intermittent and has happened to me 7 times since I got the machine). They have told me this is a problem within WinCNC, but they haven't gotten back to me with a fix, and aren't responding to update requests ove the last few weeks.

One of their tech's spent considerable time with me on the phone during the first couple of months, after pressing very hard and asking for a new machine. It turned out the y-axis screw was out by .015 requiring shims, and most of the screws holding the spindle in place were just hand tight. (My Gantry came installed) I do have to say that I purchased one of their demo units because the rep told me it only had a few light hours, and would be completely rebuilt like new, and I could get it quickly. Not even close, I am a technical guy, and would NEVER do that again. All the grease fittings were dry, and the air balancer came in bent. I lost several days for each part that had to be sent, and then several days on each set of measurements taken, recalibratons, and trying to figure out what went wrong next.

It sounds like I am dissing these guys pretty bad, but that isn't my intent. They are a good group of people, they just run a bit short on customer service and quality control. I am coming here to find others who have SS machines to find out what I can actually expect out of a well running machine, and see if it is worth another run at them for a mechanical replacement.

I like the machine, I just don't know if I still have problems or if the machine is running properly, I have had folks say I should get round circles a 250IPM. (That is what their test program runs)

I use Rhino, RhinoCam ( like v2 because of bridges), and RhinoArt. I like Rhino and have put out some good things, and do feel the machine will pay for itself at its current level of operation, even if I do have to do a bit of sanding because of the chatter, and some throw aways when carving is out of tolerance.

Back to my orginal question: How fast should I be able to run this thing doing carvings and letters. 20IPM seems to be the limit, which seems slow to me. If I could figure out a good target speed, I would be able to get back to them and suggest they give me more help, or shut up and become a relatively happy customer. Right now, they are pretty much non-responsive, possibly very busy selling and installing machines.

SetGuy: Since you have one of these machines, would you be willing to run a TAP file on your machine if I sent it to you. We could compare pics to see what I should be expecting here. I could put together some simple tests.

Recurve crafter, If you would like I can send you (private message) an outline of the problems I have had. I sent it to their president, but he didn't respond. I offered him $3k additional if he would swap me another machine.

Thanks all for your help and advice

[Recurve Crafter]

Randy,

I'm going to have to put my foot in my mouth now. About 30 minutes after I posted the first message about my doubts of the machine being sent out, I got an email that stated the CNC is on the truck today and headed my way! What a relief.

I wouldn't have minded the extra wait so bad if they would have took it upon themselves to contact me to let me know what was going on, or just told me when I ordered it that the turn around would be 8 to 10 weeks versus the 4 to 6 weeks that they first stated.

Anyways, it really helps ease my mind to hear some of you guys posting your experiences and that you're satisfied with your machines. I'm looking real forward to getting mine set up and running.

I've "lurked" on this site for several months gathering a lot of ideas and information that really helped me in choosing which machine to purchase.

Thanks to those who contribute their knowledge and experience. It's been greatly appreciated.


Best regards,
Brandon

[todd71]

Originally Posted by rgh Back to my orginal question: How fast should I be able to run this thing doing carvings and letters. 20IPM seems to be the limit, which seems slow to me. If I could figure out a good target speed, I would be able to get back to them and suggest they give me more help, or shut up and become a relatively happy customer. Right now, they are pretty much non-responsive, possibly very busy selling and installing machines.

What kind of material? How thick? What size tool?
Example:

.500 baltic birch /.500dia compression bit /13000rpm/225 ipm/
D.O.C. (.500)

.750 Micro refined MDF ( sculpted wall panel) / 1inch B.E.M / 11000rpm/ 450 ipm/ D.O.C. (.375)

.250 T6 Alum / .250 O flute (single flute) /7500rpm/ 35ipm/
D.O.C (.125 per pass)

Don't stop pushing the issue with them. You've made an investment that should function as advertised. +/- .001 is pushing it. I'm not saying it cant be done. Just seems to me I'd have to run it slow. Compared to the
+/-.004 I get as it is.

[rgh]

I am glad to hear your machine is on its way. Hope your install goes smoothly. Once it is running, I am sure you will find it does what you want.

[rgh]

Thanks,
I have been running tests on 3/4" birch Ply but it is too wavy for engraving. Most of the material I am running is 3/4" Cherry and Maple sanded flat before putting it on the machine because I only go .03-.06 deep on engraving.

Tools are Onsrud - 1/4", 3/8" down and up compression bits, DE DC 1/4" and 1/8" finishing, and DE UC 1/4 and 1/8" finishing. All bits behave the same, and all are solid carbide. For lettering I am using a special purpose carving bit (1/2" 90 degree) and onsrud 37-21 engravers. Bits are all rated at over 250IPM. On the DC bits, I blow out any channels to keep chips from building up.

Speeds range from 20-100 IPM depending on what I can get away with. I have been running the spindle at 15K, but that is too fast and I am seeing some heat on the bits, so I have been slowing it down to below 10K.

Chattering occurs regardles of IPM, and is prevalant on angles and curves. It appears to be greater in the first 1.5" of travel after changing directions.

The chatter is consistent. Meaning that if I take 3 passes to cut through a piece, the chatter lines will line up exactly. So I don't suspect slop.

I have tried doing just diagonal lines so it is just a single controller command per line with the engravers going .05 deep, and can replicate the issue varying from 20-80IPM.

I run .25 inch deep with 3 passes and tabs to keep the material together for cut throughs. Stock is screwed to spoil board. I will try to find and upload the last pics I sent SS.

[rgh]

Here is an example of running with a Onsrud 37-21 in 2" maple with v-carve. Letters we designed with Corel Draw fonts. The carving is from .003 to .015 deep. Notice how the lines vary from one S to the other, yet the problem appears to be symmetrical. This was run at 25IPM

[rgh]

Here is an example of the chatter. This was cut in 3 passes (.25 per pass). Don't know why the first cut left a mark, but it shows that the chatter isn't really chatter because the indents happen in the same place each time. This was run at 30 or 40IPM using a 1/8" DE DC bit.

[ger21]

1) How are you holding your parts down?
2) have you tried cutting a lot faster? 150ipm or more?

No matter how fast you go, your going to get heat. Especially at the low feed rates your using.