Techno vs K2

[big_mak]

I have a Haas VF-3, that I'm looking to augment with a router for some guitar necks and such. I'm comparing the techno and K2 machines. Please get this discussion going. There is a big price gap, and I don't want to get stung by going cheap. Is the K2 accurate enough to cut the slots for frets? This will be important, as I am building components for high end instruments, so they need to be nuts on!!!!

[RandK]

You don't say which Techno but I'll assume it's an LC which is a much more capable machine than the K2 but they'll both seem like toys compared to your Haas. Lots of luthiers using both machines so depends on your budget and what you can put up with on cut speed and accuracy. Having a fast machine (>250ipm) for finish toolpaths would save a lot of time. Necks and fingerboards require a bunch of different bits/mills so manual tool changes are going to be a pain even if you use gang fixturing. You'll want to option up the K2 with ballscrews, slides, and servos. Get a spindle for either. Highly recommend upgrading Z-travel to 8" pref 11" in case you do more than bolt-on necks.

I have a Techno gantry with the stock 250ipm servos which isn't quite as capable as their LC's with its heavy steel base and better slides. ATC, big spindles, faster servos can be optioned out. Their PC based controller is very stable, runs on an inexpensive machine and only takes minutes to get running. It's very simple compared to your Haas.

It'll take a lot of necks to pay for a machine compared to Warmoth or you might want to talk to Bob at saintlutherie.com or John at cncguitarparts.com

[big_mak]

I believe the techno lc3024 was what was in the range. The whole reason for macking the necks is to not have to rely on others for delivery, then I can do custom inlay work as well. The haas is tied up cutting metal(aluminum guitar bodies), so I wanted an option for necks, and possibly prototyping with out taking up much space.

[RandK]

The 3024LC is similar to my 054 Gantry (39"x20"x8.5") except that it only comes stock with 5" of Z. I have a 3HP HSD spindle and VFD and it's a great machine, a decent value for the performance, and it worked right out of the box. If the budget is the most important factor and you have the time to fool with it and for slower performance the K2 is a viable option but they are not in the same class of machine.

[big_mak]

I'm willing to spend the extra money up front, to get something that will last in an industrial environment. I'd like to use it to cut 1/8" aluminum sheet as well. My main question is accuracy.

We are making high end instruments, and if the fret spacing is out, the guitar will never intonate properly.

I've been scared off of K2 from the threads in their forum. It looks quite amatuerish at best. It's made me consider getting in the business of making these routers myself. The question is time for R & D.

[harryn]

It might sound crazy, but maybe it makes sense to have 2 similar cnc mills. It probably cannot be justified based on pure output, but maybe it makes sense if you count in things like similarity of programming, having a backup system if the main one goes down, training a second person to help, etc.

Regardless of brand, industrial equipment and hobby / commercial equipment are not the same. From a tolerance perspective, the numbers I am reading in the forums are easy for industrial mills, and right on the edge of hobby / commercial equipment capability, esp. for the fret work.

I am just a beginner so take it FWIW, but I am very familiar with the risk of relying solely on one machine (of any kind) for business critical operations.

[big_mak]

I do that everyday. My concern with Cutting wood on My Haas, is that I can say Cut wood for 6 months, then spend a good day cleaning out the machine so I don't plug up my coolant lines and such. This would not make sense to spend all that time cleaning once a week, as I changed from metal cutting to wood cutting. This Haas when spec'd out is over 90K USD compared to 20K CDN. HAving a wood dedicated machine is what I am looking for. to cut necks, inlays, and prototype bodies in wood(Production bodies are from aluminum Plate). Programming is not an issue. Operating is not an issue. I've been in CNC for 15 years and have run machines that were tape controlled NC thru to the latest and greatest Siemens.

[RandK]

Techno quotes .001" repeatability and .0002" resolution and I would not argue with that and my machine is in that ballpark after 3yrs. Wood is a pretty unstable substance to talk about .001" here or there but at least if you know you started out at that accuracy you can look somewhere else.

Fret slots are annoying but no issues with the machine on those. The tiny cutters don't clear the chips and if you don't get rid of them you'll break the cutter. Rosewood and ebony are carcinogens and blowing them around with a jet of air isn't very healthy and they don't vacuum when they're packed.

I've cut some aluminum and garolite and the machine doesn't care but the chips aren't my favorite.

Good luck.

[big_mak]

Thanks for the Info Rand. I've got some ideas on how to fixture, and cut these bad boys.

The whole premis is to be flexable for us. With our own designs of neck joints and such. We don't want to be a collector quality guitar, with a third party neck. It's working for now, but we would like to bring the capabillity in house. Heck if this little baby works out we may look at the larger varieties in the future.

[Drassk]

You can set up a second mill as dry, and cut your wood in that. I do everything from wood to steel to teflon in my machine, and a whole load of aluminum, but it does mean I have to use mist coolant. Just wipe down your table before you do wood (which is easier on a Haas, because you don't have the stupid Fadal patterning on the table...).

I use a Fadal for cutting guitar parts, Kevin Ryan uses one, Taylor uses about 60, Jim Olson uses one...and there are a bunch of other builders and factories using Haas equipment as well (I think Garrison is using Haas, as is Driskill). John Watkins, who's more in my line of things (parts) is using a Techno and is very happy with it, as well.

I ended up in this thread because I googled my web address, although I've been on this forum for a long time.

-Bob Garrish
Saint Lutherie CNC & Luthier Services
www.saintlutherie.com

[big_mak]

Thanks Bob. My thing is, I'm not just a guitar builder. I've started as a jobbing machine shop, and happened across a customer who wants me to build guitars for him, and get into prototyping and design. I want to keep my mill metal cutting, and with ally, I'd prefer to use Flood Coolant. Better finishes IMO anyway. The router thing intrigues me, as it doesn't take up much floor space, and it is the perfect size for bolt on gutiar parts. If I went for Neck thru, the I'd have to look for something bigger of course, but we are doing aluminum bodies with wood necks so bolt on is the way. You can check out our handy work.

You'd be surprised at the sound that comes out of this thing.

www.liquidmetalguitars.com

[big_mak]

Bob,

Nice work on your site btw. we should work on a joint build some day. are you interested? West Coast meets the East cost?