Part nesting cutting/ machine time prices

[comandojon]

Hello,

Here's a question maybe someone on here can answer . We just upgraded our router to a masterwood project 315. It has just about everything but cup holders you can get on a flat table machine.

For some time other shops in town have been asking for us to cut their nested cabinet box parts. I did a few jobs but the router was tied up on my own work so I never really worked out a pricing system.

I figure I need to account for the data entry time into the nesting software, recieving in their sheet goods, loading the machine, unloading, palletizing the parts , then loading on the customers truck.

Those items above are easy to figure but what about the machine time ?
What's a fair figure?
I can anticipate tool life that's an easy one if the material is a standard item.

I know there are shops out there that do contract cutting.

If you have any insight I would appreciate it.

Jon

[ger21]

We don't normally cut cabinet parts for others, but I believe we charge about $125/hour for machine time. I can normally cut 8-10 sheets/hour of nested cabinet parts. If you can only cut 3-4 sheets, you really can't charge the same as someone that's much more efficient.

What I'd recommend is charge for nesting as a separate item. Who's programming the parts? What nesting software do you use, and how long does it take?

Basically, you break down the time needed for programming, receiving, stacking and loading, and add all those costs to the machine time cost.

Doesn't a 315 have pods? I used to program and run a 327 for about 12 years.

[comandojon]

Gerry,

Right now I do about 5 hour with the very limited camwood we have, to speed things up I use a construction line boring machine for dowels and a line boring machien for the shelves. I had to do that to get a decent level of production out of the single spindle machine.

I think the little router was a good to learn on, not the best investment, but you learn, if my production stayed low I would have just kept using it. Funny about the time I got the camwood all dialed in, proficient at the software I outgrew it.

The project 315 is a 2006, I thought they were all pod machines too but this one came with a phenolic table with pop up positioning pins. It pretty much a project 400 that masterwood still sells overseas.

For software I have a few. For simple boxes I use cabinet parts pro, it was what I initially bought and worked well for non fancy cabinets. I had big dreams of getting more out of the camwood so I bought cabinet pro, but realized the camwood could never fully utilize all the software offered.

We also have Bobcad , the new version is a little more intuitive, I use it for part cut out and carving architectural panels.

The masterwood was a repo that came with masterworks, mastercabinet 1,2,3
A 10hp vacuum pump, and 29 hours on the meter. It is spotless.
We took delivery this morning and due to a busy day I only got it assembled and leveled. Tomorrow we will finish the wiring and see what happens when I turn it on.
I have no idea what mastercabinet has going for it. I installed it on an older 32 bit xp machine before I had run to a meeting. Tomorrow I'll see what it can do.

Hopefully the tool holders I ordered show up tomorrow, can't do much with out them.


Jon

[comandojon]

Gerry,
Forgot to mention I am programming the parts and run the machine. I input all the cabinet sizes in the software, nest them and take them on a USB drive to the machine. I usually go in early, run a job and have it stacked on the parts carts for the guys to edge band when they come in at 7 am. When the office is slower I run the machine all day. With the new router I am hoping to cut the machining time down.

It will be nice to keep all the machining on the table my guys are pretty good but they do make mistakes on the boring machines.

Jon

[comandojon]

Gerry,

I had some time today to power up the machine and start checking out what it's all about.
It uses the CN12 controller on an HP pc that's inside the goofy looking cabinet. I am very sure that the 29 hours is correct on the hour counter. I found a bunch of emails from Masterwood tech support in a folder on the desk top. I think the previous owner was sold the magical " it will modernize your shop and have you cutting parts in no time " line. The emails were mostly about him not having a good understanding of how the control systems works and the errors that can occurr when you don't sit down and read the manuals.

I still don't have master cabinet opened up, I am getting a hardware lock error, so maybe one of the keys is bad, Monday i'll takle that issue. I brought home the CN12 cd rom so I can read up on the control system.

jon

[ger21]

Ours had a CN10 DOS control, and I've never seen a CN12.

The key to getting the most out of any machine is knowing the software inside and out. Typically, software supplied by machine manufacturers is OK for one off stuff, but not really any good for production.

You want to automate as much of the software process as possible,

[comandojon]

Gerry,
Merry Christmas!

The machine is all set up, I decided to have masterwood parts and service come out and go through the machine with me. The amount of work we have going would have made it hard to learn the machine. So two days later I have a cleaned and serviced machine and a very good grasp on how the control system works.

The tech was able to answer most of my questions but there are a few that are more programming related.

I wrote a spoil board plane program in masterworks. The program runs fine however here is my question regarding the fly cutter and spoil board.

According to the tech everything on the z axis is referenced from drill number one. We wrote a simple program to drill a hole y1 x1 z.250 checked the locations made a minor adjustment in the parameters for z and we were done.
I subsequently wrote a program that used all the various tools in the carousel and checked the depth of cut. They were all dead on.

The issue is that since everything is based off the drill and that z height was established with a 3/4 spoil board and a 3/4 melamine panel, obviously the fly cutter will be .750 less the planing depth of .030 above the spoil board.

Until I find a different solution I reduced the tool length by .750 in the set up screen. It got the job done but there just has to be a better way.

If you or anyone else has some thoughts on this I would appreciate it.

Jon

[ger21]

Our Masterwood had pods, so I didn't have to deal with spoilboard thickness.

On our Morbidelli, when we load a program, we get a window where we can enter the spoilboard thickness. All our tools are measured in relationship to the table (below the spoilboard) and entered into the tool table. When we load a program and specify the spoilboard thickness, the thickness is accounted for so the tools are in the correct place.

I would think you have a place to enter spoilboard thickness?? If not, using the machine will be a pita.

[comandojon]

The machine came with masterworks , and mastercabinet. Supposedly mastercabinet is a flat table configuration program,where masterworks is really the pod and rail cnc control.

It looks like the previous owner intentionally ruined the key for mastercabinet, when masterwood in Italy brought my machine up remotely the tech was all to familliar with the previous owners short comings in the use of the machine and software.

I worked out a deal to buy the new version of mastercabinet, and a new key. I still have to pay cabinetpro for my post processor for the masterwood.

Just for amusement I quickly drew a sheet of cabinet parts in masterwork, and then ran it. The machine is fast I never realized how a real machine functions .

Jon

[comandojon]

The cn12 controller is pretty cool. Being european it's not the most intuitive but I have a pretty good handle on how it works . The spoil board question I had earlier was answered by reading the manual. There is a box that you input your " template" thickness into.
I paid for the new " mastercabinet" software but it has not come in yet. I also paid for the post processor setup from cabinet pro. I should have that this coming week.
For the time being I am using masterworks that came with the machine. It's really a killer program and pretty easy to use. For an upcoming project this week I used masterworks cad/cam software to generate all my cabinet parts and machine code. It's so easy to work with I might make a standard line of cabinets on it to keep in a library.
We have some one off furniture pieces to do this month and I plan on having the router do all the case machining, leaving just the hand cut dovetails to the shop guys.

Next up to learn is miter fold . I have a 91 deg. Insert cutter, I am figuring on using mdf core material.