Finding The Right Router

[ger21]

Before I posted my previous reply, I was going to tell you you would have to spend at least $25K to get what you were asking for. In your original post you said you wanted to build a 5 x 10 router. Depending on what you used for linear bearings, and whether you used ball screws or rack and pinion, or something else, I'd say your looking at $4K to 8K minimum for a rolling frame. Provided you can cut and weld it all up yourself. If you need to have someone else do the work, add more $$.

Did your MultiCAM router have a spindle that did 30,000 rpm? Why do you think you need 30,000 rpm. With a 1/2" tool, I cut at 4000ipm and 15,000 rpm. With a 1/8" tool, I've never had the need to go over 19-20,000rpm. This is cutting mdf, plywood and other wood panel products, as well as hardwoods.
A good spindle will run you $3-5K, or more.

Good quality steppers, drives, power supply, pendant, electronics will run $1500-$3000 or more. You'll need to have pretty good electronics skills to wire everything up. You'll probably have to build your own pendant. This is assuming you'll be using Mach2 and Gecko drives http://www.geckodrive.com to control the machine. You could go with a ready to run commercial type system, but the price will go up quickly.

If you want a vacuum system to hold down parts through a spoilboard on a 5 x 10 machine, old vacuum cleaners are going to get the job done. Add another 3-5K, or more.

Decent dust collection can probably be had for $500-$1000.

A coolant system (mist?) will make a mess on a router used to cut wood and foam.

Software. This depends on a lot of things. I know a lot of guys can get by with Corel Draw to do a lot of sign work. Add an inexpensive 2D CAM program like SheetCAM ($150), http://www.sheetcam.com and you can do a lot of things. But it really depends on your needs, and the products that you produce. Step up to something like ArtCAM Insignia, and you're out another $3K. There are a few other sign packages in the same price range. Go to ArtCAM Pro, and you're looking at $7K. You can spend a lot more.
One thing to remember, DON'T EVER buy any expensive CAD/CAM software without letting the company let you try it for at least 30 days. Some may let you pay on a month by month basis for a trial period. Bottom line, make sure the software you are buying will work for you. Every software salesman (machine salesman too) will tell you there product is just what you need. Only you really know what you need.

Now add in about 1000 hours of your time to get the thing built, another 1000 hours to make changes and upgrades to get it working like you want. Several hundred hours to learn and get very proficient with the software you'll be using.

It might seem a lot cheaper, but when all is said and done, a production quality 5 x 10 machine will not be cheap.

If you don't have the money to spend on something like the ShopBOT, you might want to look at http://www.data-cut.com The guy who sells the plans has a lot of sign making experience, too. According to the info on his site http://data-cut.com/download/dc-list.rtf , even a smaller machine like this will probably cost $6-7K.

I think you need to do a lot more research into what you really want to do. Learn what the machine will do for you're business. How much of a learning curve is involved. You can't just drop a CNC router in your shop and expect it to start making money.

[yukonho]

MultiCam machines come with EnRoute software. The original version was complete crap. I used it for 2 years. Aparently EnRoute has been updated considerably, but I have not used the new version.
There are indeed many different versions of CAM software you can use. MasterCam or Gibbs is 3D software and is overkill for signmaking, not to mention expensive as.
Colin

[Crushmonkey]

Wow, Gerry. That's more information in five minutes than I've found myself in hours. Thanks!

Cutting and welding isn't an issue since I have access to three welders, Journeyman to Master.

If I remember correctly, we ran rpm's from 16,000 to 24,000 depending on the material. I think 30, 000 is probably a number that's sticking in my head because I was told one of the CAD routers at the local air force base is spec'd to that number.
We cut and shaped wood, plex, acrylic and foam blanks, and sheet metal, which is what the mist spray is for. The dust gathering on the oil overspray wasn't so bad if between jobs I airhosed carefully and ran a rag where I could fit it. The oil was mostly around the spindle head and the edges of my toolpaths anyway.

Since we didn't have a plotter yet, I also would disable the spindle and stick a sharpie marker in it to trace my paper patterns

There's two of us capable of reading wiring blueprints or detailed diagrams, but only one who could do any heavy soldering, although I'd have trouble talking him into it.
So I'm going to assume a professional system unless it'd be worth my while to find someone to wire it for me.

what would be an acceptable CFM or mbar/Torr rating for a vaccum pump to pull solidly through that much spoilboard? It seems that for 5 grand about 65 CFM is what I'd be getting. Although there is a trailer-mounted pump powered by a V8 diesel and rated 2200 CFM on ebay currently for $2500. Wonder what the reserve is. That could hold down probably any reasonably-sized table I could build plus provide chip/dust evacuation and still power vac cleanup throughout the shop. But is that so much volume as to degrade the spoilboard?

And yeah... I checked into it and the vaccum cleaner motors I'm used to only pull just over 6 CFM each... So I'd have a whole wall dedicated to just vaccum cleaner motors. Even at that cheap, it'd still be a bother.

Are there many folks on this site that work in the sign industry? I'll post in the proper area to ask them which software they perfer for applications such as I'd be doing.

Maybe if I don't buy every single component separately, but certain assembled systems and subsystems to put together into a whole unit, I might be able to get a better bargain than retail without having to pay retail. Say I focus on selling signs, and buy my router in steps. That seems less daunting than either having to save up thirty grand or spend fifteen but lose so much time assembling it part by part.

What do y'all think?

Yukonho: I hated EnRoute. I was told that since I'd been using plotter programs for so long, Enroute should be intuitive for me. Not so. And I've heard that EnRoute was crap, But the upgrade, V.4, (which we never got to install since we had to say bye-bye to teh table) is supposedly much better than the version I was running, according to our sign buddies.

And I'd want to start with software capable of 2.5D on 3 axis and 3D once I upgrade to four or five axis, since we've had call for large 3D sign sculpting and lost out to the local sign behemoth corp for more profit than the whole router cost. We could have cut it in 2.5D layers and laminated them together, but the time factor put us over the limit.

We wouldn't be doing 3D all the time, but it would be worthwhile to have when we can throw a bid on it

[ger21]

ShopBOT's site lists two vacuum systems. A7.5HP that draws 14"Hg@144CFM, and a 15HP that doubles the CFM. They don't list the prices, but I'd think the smaller one would be in the $5K range.

I haven't really seen any commercial sign industry people here. There may be, though.

If the ShopBot is out of your range, here's my recommendation.

Either buy a smaller machine, ready to run, say 24x48 or 30x60, that you can use right away, or build a machine from the following plans:
http://www.inshorepowerboats.com/cnc.../CNCROUTER.htm
http://www.campbelldesigns
http://www.data-cut.com

If you spend enough time reading here, you could even design your own router.

You don't need a vacuum hold down system to start with. You can always add one at a later time.

But a copy of SheetCAM for $150. That and CorelDraw will let you cut any 2D signs you want, with the exception of V-carved lettering.

This will let you get up and running for less money, and you can start making money while you're learning.
Then spend the money to get better software, if you find you need it.
Then upgrade to a larger machine.

This should get you running for around $5K, maybe a little more, maybe a lot less.

Building a 5x10 table as your first machine will more than likely cost you a lot more than buying the ShopBOT, and probably will take a lot of modifications to make it work as well as a ShopBOT.

You might want to browse through the forums at ShopBOT, I'm sure there are a lot of Signmakers there that could answer your questions, as well as just a lot of good information. http://www.talkshopbot.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

[Crushmonkey]

thanks for all the input, Gerry. It's much appreciated.

One of the things I realized with the other router that we had is that even our sign shop on a good month wouldn't run it more than a few hours a week max, so with the new router I got the idea of funding enough of it myself (through my own wages and whatever loans I can get) to own it or controlling shares in it and have a little routing company as my own side venture - mostly to pay the router off, then as fun and profit

Me and my brother are kind of amateur gadgeteers I guess you could say - we blame it on all the legos and erector sets as kids. Our motivation for the eventual 5-axis router is to use it to make things that are fun for us to build, and then sell them. Furniture, movie props, jewelry, whatever appeals to us to build and market really.

So initially I'd be starting it just for sign applications. But I'd like to have enough work to run it at least a full shift a week. I wouldn't complain for two shifts, either. But it's a little early to be going there. *chuckles*

As far as the ShopBot, it looks like a solid machine and it may be within my range. I seem to recall seeing somewhere that they have proprietary software and am going to check into that.

[turmite]

Originally Posted by ger21 I cut at 4000ipm and 15,000 rpm. With a 1/8" tool, I've never had the need to go over 19-20,000rpm.

Ger21....am I reading this right? You are cutting at 4000ipm? If so can you please tell me what kind of drive motors, linear setup and controller? I have a need for speed but with my product I may not be able to have it.

Mike
ps not trying to hijack!

[ger21]

Sorry, Mike. That was supposed to be 400ipm.

[skippy]

Crushmonkey, having followed this thread through a bit, it seems like you've got what it takes to get on top of that earlier fiasco with the other machine. Believe it or not my first introduction to cnc back in 1990 was much the same except I spent $104,000AUD (from memory $1AUD wasn't too far off $1USD back in 1990, unlike today) of my own hard earned money on a large router ($73,000) and software ($29,500) that couldn't complete a single job without taking off out of control at full speed, smashing the tool bit, often wrecking the job, and smashing into the end plates. (for some reason the E-stop wouldn't work when it was out of control, and no it wasn't the encoders at fault). A true "baptism by fire"!
To cut a long story short, when the warranty ran out after 3 months and they still couldn't find the fault and I still couldn't complete a single job and therefore had to contract everything out,
I put it into storage and took the legal route which took eight years. I won the court case but not really. For seven years I paid all the legal fees out of my own pocket as "pro-bono" doesn't or didn't exisit in Australia. Then, when the lawyers could smell the money (i.e. could see that I was going to win) suddenly their fees went through the roof and ate up nearly all the compensation money. You can imagine what it's like to fight your own lawyer over fees. A lawyer could justify $2,000 for a cup of coffee if he wished to! By the time the court case had finished some eight years later, the still defective machine was worth less than $10,000.
I'm telling you all this to say, my heart goes out to you because I know what you're going through. Although I think you were a bit quick to cut your losses, I should have cut mine and moved on instead of going the legal route. The other thing is that back then cnc was like "black art" as no one knew anything about it so therefore if you were unlikely enough to have pooly trained technicians like I had, they could tell you anything to cover their guess work. Luckily, everything has changed these days, well, in the case of your machine I'll say almost everything. Cnc is no longer a black art, technicians are generally well trained, (I wish there had been technicians of the standard of "Big Al" back then!) and above all the software has become so good (generally) and so cheap. I've recovered quite well since those days and I'm sure you've got what it takes to do the same.

Anyway, I wanted to say your on the right track with Gerry's advice re machines but by the same token as Mcgyver says, don't underestimate the power of sales. I love the technical side of things which is why I am here at cnczone BUT I'm the first to admit that sales are what drives any business. It's like water on a farm, you can't do without the water / seeds / tractor / land / farmer / scarecrow / accounting / fertiliser / etc. BUT it's the water (= sales orders) that makes it really happen.

[Crushmonkey]

Hey guys. Long time no post. I'm updating because with the new dynamics of the sign shop, my input on a router table is being requested. I have to do a lot of homework because I'm bucking for the operator position on the new router. DIY wasn't a viable option, and buying a desktop/benchtop CAD router wouldn't have been of too much help, so we liquidated and then integrated what was left of our company with another, larger branch of the family sign business. Which was what we should have done from the beginning, but hindsight is twenty/twenty they say.

Here's part of the want list I got yesterday:



needs to be a flexible, sturdy unit. Larger than 4'X 8' cutting area required. Unit will cut/rout sheet and plate metal, sheet and block plastic, and various types of wood of varying thickness. Oil mist system for sheet metal, vaccuum hold-down, chip/dust evacuation, and multi-compatible software (hpgl, g-code, etc) in a windows-based environment, no inputting text code in DOS please, users will be working/importing from a graphics-heavy environment such as Corel and Adobe), and 3.5 or more dimensions for carving and sculpting (bas-relief, etc) will all be under consideration for the final unit purchased.


I'll be back from time to time, I just wanted to use this thread as a basis of reference in my compilation of data. I'm glad to have cause to come back to the forum again

[Mr.Vain]

OK now that you have a wish list, do we have a budget?

[Halfnutz]

Fact is, is that even if that Multicam had nothing wrong with it, the learning curve to produce good product from scratch in a professional arena - and turn a blank screen into flawless high end product while maintaining and adjusting a new machine and working out the systems bugs (the entire lead to spec to quote to sale to production to installation to payday system) - is a long steep slope.

Without some real experiance on a cnc machine its going to take a long time just to get proficient in generating code and making product on a professional scale.

Lots of lessons to be learnt here. A huge part of the budget has to be time and energy invested. All the money in the world can't buy experiance. I would spend as much of that time and energy as possible now, before you have another 30K rope around your neck. Learn as much as you can first, including CAD/CAM and controller basics, before you spend money. All that info's available here, bassically for free.

You,ve found the right place to start, good luck!