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Thread: best 4'x8'x12" router for ~$30k

  1. #1
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    best 4'x8'x12" router for ~$30k

    I've been assembling quotes for CNC routers and we're getting close to picking one.

    This machine will be used in a collegiate fabrication shop in design education: mostly by architecture students. We'll probably use RhinoCam for toolpath generation. Output will include 3D topographic site models, 2D building elevations, modular building systems (tab & slot), molds for thermoforming, occasional furniture parts and surely a million things we would never have thought of.

    We're currently considering (in no particular order): Precix Industrialplus, Techno LC, ShopBot PRSa, CAMaster Cobra and EZ Router Scorpion. To me these machines (except maybe the ShopBot) have very similar specifications and capabilities. Pricing w/12"z, 3-5hp spindle, vac table and vac pump ranges from $26.5k to $37k. The Techno got about 10K higher than the sales rep initially indicated which may knock it out of consideration.

    I would very much appreciate any comments and suggestions, particularly useful would be significant quantitative and functional differences between the machines.

    Obviously part of the cost and expectations with such an investment are support after the sale. Comments regarding the customer service, maintenance issues and user support networks associated with any of the machines/manufacturers are also appreciated.

    There is a table with specs and pricing for the machines under consideration here: (or attached)

    https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...MDNjZWEy&hl=en

    If anybody notices obvious errors or can help fill in any blanks on the table, that would be appreciated. I have not included a couple of manufactures of whom I have requested but not received a quote(after 2+weeks). If there are other machines that NEED to be included please let me know.

    Thanks in advance, I hope input from this knowledgeable community can help us determine which machine best meets our needs.

    Regards,
    KG
    UofMN
    College of Design
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails best 4'x8'x12" router for ~k-cnccompare.pdf  
    W.L. Hall Workshop, College of Design, University of Minnesota
    http://design.umn.edu/current_students/leo/hall/index.html


  2. #2
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    excellent work!!

    that is the most comprehensive comparrison i have seen to date, i will say thanks as it makes me feel pretty good about my camaster x3. on the machine side mine was built in october of 08 and has yet to give me any kind of significant trouble. it is built with industrial quality parts that are easily replaceable and readily available there is no propietary contol by the company. previous to this machine i had a 408 built in 99 that never lost a day of work and has been sold to a sign company in florida and is at work to day.

    support, all camaster owners have the cell phone numbers of the owners and techs who build and service the owner community. the owner supported forum [url]www.camheads.org[url] is moderated by the owners of the machines in an autonomus manner in order to keep everyone on thier toes in credibility, camster provides direct live real time online support via internet, this eliminates the cost of having to send techs to a site for diagnostics, any tuning of the machine and training can be done this way.

    controllers, wincnc is an excellent industrial controller that i have yet to find any limitations with. it uses a daughter board free of the cpu mother board, this allows for free access to the computer whill the machine is running or using a file, i can teach, be on the internet, and have techs and any one else watching my my machine (or any thing else) via webcam and this is all at the same time. i have yet to have any problem (and yes i have done some dumb screwups) that was not solved in a few minutes for 95% of any issue and within a shipping day of a needed part ( i fried a stepper motor and yes it can be done!!)

    you asked for comparison's of the machines, one of the most attractive features of working with the owners of camaster is they have never badmouthed another cnc company to me in any form, and i wlii admit i met and researched 4 of 5 of the machines you have shown and none of them did this either, you have pickked a good lot for comparison! i will note this to represent that one will cut and carve at any speed over 600 ipm might be a stretch, yes it can be done not advisable but it could be done if you do not break bits or destroy material, rapids of 1000 -1500 are realistic, but i look for the quality of cut and common sense.

    software, camaster includes vcarve pro with thier machines, to shopbot this is called partworks and to the best of my knowledge is include for them as well. it is an excellent file production program. it is not a cad program and many software companys provide software at a greatly reduced rate for educational facilitys. i have done a good bit of online training with this program for the new owners of camasters and all are making chips on the first day (provided the machine is correctly wired and ready to run). i have a friend who closed his cabinetshop and returned to teach woodworking and building trades in a local high school, i am helping him to implement his cnc program into the school, (he has a laser already) the administrators of several other local schools have been in tmy shop to see the machine and prepare for cnc in thier schools, in most all cases the need for cnc in education is immediate and desired so then comes budget, i have told many to go back to the school and as they walk down a hall look for the cost of signage, cabinetry, art production, sets for plays in theater, and many other uses of a cnc which could now be done in school using ciriculum as a method, add up that outsourced cost against the value of the teaching tool and the machine will pay it self off quicker than a school owned truck or other asset!! we are setting the course in addition to the neccessary learning needs (gcode, file production, safety etc.) to include a personal project for each student ( a sign for grandma, a new dash board for the ride, etc.) and a class project to be left with the school for each year, ( a display cabinet for the trophy's, cool signage, plaques, just to name a few) cnc has potential good educators will go in and pull it out, students in our countrys are not a lost cause and we can rebuild our manufacturing base to compete in a world economy.

    thank you for asking for this, i have wanted to write this for a while and you helped me by providing the opportunity!! oh an buy the way i made a cannon in high school shop!

    jim mcgrew

    i will add this, the method by which the camaster gantry is built easily allows for reconfiguration shoud one desire to add a cnc lathe or the end boring capbility
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails best 4'x8'x12" router for ~k-collages3.jpg   best 4'x8'x12" router for ~k-collages5.jpg   best 4'x8'x12" router for ~k-collages7.jpg   best 4'x8'x12" router for ~k-img_4177.jpg  

    best 4'x8'x12" router for ~k-img_4630.jpg  
    Last edited by cabnet636; 03-18-2010 at 10:47 AM.
    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com https://www.dropcam.com/p/PFmTOV


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    ez-Router Scorpion

    Wow great comparison. Very impressive.

    I have a Scorpion machine from ez-Router. i love it. i have never had any real problems out of it at all. i have had it for a little over a year. The machine is very fast and very accurate. i did a similar comparison when i was deciding on a machine (not as nice as yours). I went with the Scorpion machine because i spoke with many of their existing customers who all had great things to say. Their customer service was great and after seing many machines in person the Scorpion seemed like the more robust machine. In my opinion the best bang for the buck.

    ez-Router Scorpion
    Brushless Servos
    Auto Tool Changer
    Vacuum Bed

    Good Luck


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    A couple more machines have been added to the comparison.

    The table will now be stored and updated here:
    http://design.umn.edu/current_studen...CNCcompare.pdf

    Getting close, but more input is always welcome, might as well expand the comparison for other's benefit since it's gotten this far.

    -kg
    W.L. Hall Workshop, College of Design, University of Minnesota
    http://design.umn.edu/current_students/leo/hall/index.html


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    ShopSabre?

    How about adding ShopSabre? Not sure if they were excluded because of a slow sales person, but last time I called them (about a year ago) they sent me a list of prices for all options etc.. My prices were for a different format machine, though.

    This comparison looks very good, so it would be nice to have it be even more complete ;-) Thanks for sharing all this research!

    Cheers,

    -Peter


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    kg,

    Looking at the pictures I don't see how some of those machines can claim 9" clearance. Most of them appear to have gantries closer to the bed than the shopbot, which is 8 or 9 inches up.


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    All of the pics are probably of machines in the stock configurations. Nobody provides 12" clearance stock, a few don't even offer it as an option. If available, the extra z is either included in the base prices or as a line item depending upon how it was quoted to me.
    W.L. Hall Workshop, College of Design, University of Minnesota
    http://design.umn.edu/current_students/leo/hall/index.html


  • #8
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    the gantry plates on the camaster are interchangeable, the x sits on a horizontal surface and can be raised or adjisted side to side as needed for configuration, i have two sets of plates, one i had made for high gantry when doing the chess players
    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com https://www.dropcam.com/p/PFmTOV


  • #9
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    My list had gotten bigger and is now getting smaller.

    I've ruled out (but probably not completely):
    Techno : Funky "outboard rail" design uses too much space in our small shop, don't want a sales rep between us and the manufacturer, proprietary controller.
    Precix : Made in Mexico - sold from Canada, proprietary controller, some questionable feedback re:support and durability (though little is known ot the relatively new "Industrial Plus line".
    Hass, Multicam : no 12"+ Z option - too bad, they both look like good machines - Haas has some serious cred.
    ShopBot : Lighter, aluminum rails, lift-over side access, bolt together base. It seems to me that the ShopBot should be less $ than the competition but isn't.
    AXYZ: 60" bed makes machine too wide for our available space.

    I had been leaning strongly towards CAMaster but now I'm less certain because....

    I went to ShopSabre's plant today to see their machines in person and get some time face time with the personnel. All in all, they appear to be a very well designed, engineered and constructed machine. The staff take great pride in the durability and serviceability of their product. The lifelong customer support they claim seems almost to good to be true, calls roll-over to staff's cells evenings and weekends. They are only 35mi from our shop which might be very handy if we ever need tech support, maybe we would even get some "special treatment". Small, local, family run operation. 3000 machines sold worldwide since 2001.

    Technical differences:
    CAMaster vs Shop Sabre
    DC Servos - AC Servos
    Rack&Pinion XY - Ballscrew XY
    ~$31k - ~$35K
    (specs:4'x8', 12"z, vac table, vac pump, 3kW HSD, side mt indexing lathe, control PC)

    Similarities:
    Welded tubular steel base
    WINCNC controller
    Indexing lathe available

    I would appreciate feed back on the ballscrew vs R&P and the AC vs DC servo differences. Any other comments/suggestions still welcomed.

    I'm attending the "Aspire camp" in May so will be able to make a more educated comparison between the CAMaster and the ShopSabre.

    Thanks,
    kg

    comparison here:
    http://design.umn.edu/current_studen...CNCcompare.pdf
    W.L. Hall Workshop, College of Design, University of Minnesota
    http://design.umn.edu/current_students/leo/hall/index.html


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    I would vote for the shopsabre just because it has ballscrews.

    BTW, I have a techno and the proprietary controller stinks but the ballscrews are completely covered in the X and Z axis. You could pick up a used one on eBay and save some serious cash like I did. I got a perfect lc4896 for $5200.
    [url]Http://www.glenspeymillworks.com[/url] *Techno LC4896 - 2.2Kw Water Cooled Spindle | *Moving Table Mill from an Omis 3 CMM, 500Lb granite base, Hitachi router, Mach3


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    Added a few more machines, getting cold calls from manufacturers, no cease-and-desist orders yet. Dumb Google Docs doesn't enable revisions (what's the point?).

    perpetually revised comparison here:
    http://design.umn.edu/current_studen...CNCcompare.pdf

    sorry 'bout previous dead links, can't edit.

    Still between CAMaster and ShopSabre, checking out CM in person in a couple weeks.

    Anybody have ISSUES with Hiwin rails and bearings or PC based controllers?

    thx
    -kg
    UMN DESIGN
    W.L. Hall Workshop, College of Design, University of Minnesota
    http://design.umn.edu/current_students/leo/hall/index.html


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    i see you heard from the "stuck in the past salesmen" who still cannot grasp that wincnc is a daughterboard based controller which gives it an amazing amount of freedom from the motherboard of a computer!! (i should warned you about the advertiser "ruled" forums), look forward to meeting you we have a great gathering planned and an excellent (pretty well full) group of people coming. joey sold several x3's today and i am keeping one of the stingers that they are bringing to cola. see you soon

    jim
    James McGrew CAMaster 508 ATC
    www.mcgrewwoodwork.com https://www.dropcam.com/p/PFmTOV


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