looking to upgrade from cncrouterparts machine to used mid-level or industrial?

[muibubbles]

Hey everyone, I've been using my CNCrouterparts (24x48) machine for about 4 years now and I've really reached its limitations for my needs. I've been looking for months between various machines and need some advice on what would be the best machine to upgrade to. My 3 "groups" of machines I've been looking at are, new chinese import- roc-tech/omni (~$10-30K depending US dealer vs from factory), used commercial axyz/multicam (~$10-20K), or

While this is another "advice on machine thread" I am not really looking for advice on specs and hardware but more for support and which machine would be the best transition. I'm very familiar with mach 3 as Ive been using it for 4+ years on the cnc router and about a year with my cnc plasma. I've been using vetric cut2d and sheetcam for my plasma.

New Chinese import-(~$10-30K depending US dealer vs from factory)
It seems like most of these will come with a syntec controller of sort. While I'm not familiar with these, there looks like there is enough videos and support (from the community) that it wouldn't be a problem to learn or figure out if I run into issues. Freight makes me a bit uneasy as well as getting a "custom table with my own specs' but there seem to be a few dealers in the US with tables already here that can be demo'd however there is a premium for it. The main brands I'm looking at are of the Roc-tech or Omni brand. These 5x10 models have pretty much all the bells ans whistles- ATC, Vacuum table, pop up ins, etc.

Used Axyz/Multicam- (~$10-20K)
I've been a little biased to axyz tables (not sure why) and is kind of my first choice- It seems to be one of the big plays in the sign industry along with multicam. While not terribly important, it always made me curious why AXYZ didn't have a sub-forum on this forum, are they not common enough or for some other reason? That worried me about "community support" While looking at A vs B vs C Machine threads, multicam always seemed to come up as a popular favorite as well which is why I'm considering them as well. Both of these machines seem like they accept vetric as a CAM software so I'm not too worried about the transition on these either. However, have any of you found it to be a nuisance that the controllers just load and cut files vs the computer based controllers like mach 3 where you can edit and cut from the same console?

Used High End Industrial Machines Weeke, Biesse, Busellato, Onsrud, etc. (~$20-30K)
Most of the ones I'm looking at are older 2004-2014 range, and this is only falls in my price range if I can find one for the right price (I have seen numerous end within this range at auctions) BUT the support scares me- It seems like if I don't buy direct almost none of them want to provide support even if it is their machine. And some companies charge just to take your phone call which is absurd to me.. Also most of them seem like they use their own software and some may be proprietary which worries me. However, machine for machine, these seem like the best for the money. Some of these machines come with their own computer however they dont look like the support usb comm so I'm not sure you would load files if they are designed on another PC..

95% of my work consist on cutting aluminum sheet. If anyone can give some advice or steer me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

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[Jim Dawson]

New Chinese import-(~$10-30K depending US dealer vs from factory)
It seems like most of these will come with a syntec controller of sort. While I'm not familiar with these, there looks like there is enough videos and support (from the community) that it wouldn't be a problem to learn or figure out if I run into issues. Freight makes me a bit uneasy as well as getting a "custom table with my own specs' but there seem to be a few dealers in the US with tables already here that can be demo'd however there is a premium for it. The main brands I'm looking at are of the Roc-tech or Omni brand. These 5x10 models have pretty much all the bells ans whistles- ATC, Vacuum table, pop up ins, etc.

This is a case of you get what you pay for. The premium that you pay to a US dealer is for the after sale support (hopefully). Personally I would not buy an expensive machine directly from the manufacturer in China. The only machine I have bought from China was a cheap table top 24x48 kit because I just needed a quick and cheap XYZ positioner for a non-machining project. I tossed all of the electronics in the misc. parts bin and installed my own controls. I'm pretty sure you could install Mach3 on any of those machines without too much difficulty.

Used Axyz/Multicam- (~$10-20K)
I've been a little biased to axyz tables (not sure why) and is kind of my first choice- It seems to be one of the big plays in the sign industry along with multicam. While not terribly important, it always made me curious why AXYZ didn't have a sub-forum on this forum, are they not common enough or for some other reason? That worried me about "community support" While looking at A vs B vs C Machine threads, multicam always seemed to come up as a popular favorite as well which is why I'm considering them as well. Both of these machines seem like they accept vetric as a CAM software so I'm not too worried about the transition on these either. However, have any of you found it to be a nuisance that the controllers just load and cut files vs the computer based controllers like mach 3 where you can edit and cut from the same console?

I don't know anything about the AXYZ machines, but I do have some experience with the MultiCam machines. They seem to be well built for a mid-range machine. I do find it to be a nuisance that the controller will not allow many functions that I like, but the system is designed for the operator rather than a tech. Loading the program is really not that bad, you can do all the editing/design off of the machine then just select the edited file to run. My Multicam customer just has a laptop on a bench between his machines and is able to do all of the editing on the shop floor. The laptop is connected via serial connection to both machines, the newer MultiCam machine use ethernet connections for file transfers. Most of his work is aluminium also. MultiCam wants to charge for support also. It would be relatively easy to convert a MultiCam router to Mach3. Many MultiCam routers can operate on single or 3 phase power. You might also look at ShopBot machines, the only one I personally know of seems to be working fine for their needs.

Used High End Industrial Machines Weeke, Biesse, Busellato, Onsrud, etc. (~$20-30K)
Most of the ones I'm looking at are older 2004-2014 range, and this is only falls in my price range if I can find one for the right price (I have seen numerous end within this range at auctions) BUT the support scares me- It seems like if I don't buy direct almost none of them want to provide support even if it is their machine. And some companies charge just to take your phone call which is absurd to me.. Also most of them seem like they use their own software and some may be proprietary which worries me. However, machine for machine, these seem like the best for the money. Some of these machines come with their own computer however they dont look like the support usb comm so I'm not sure you would load files if they are designed on another PC..

Before considering a full on industrial machine, look at the power requirements and the power you have available in your shop. I'm pretty sure in all cases they require 3 phase power. I bought a 4x8 Thermwood basket case and had to replace the 10KW spindle with a 3HP because I didn't have enough power available to run it and do not have 3 phase in my shop. The machines are built for hard industrial use, they are substantial and accurate. I would look for a machine with a dead computer and plan on installing my own control system. Mach3 would not be a good choice for these machines. While it would run the machine, there would be a loss of performance. The existing computers have some method of loading files, normally the files are generated off line using some standard CAM software and the machines are connected to the shop network for file transfers.

[muibubbles]

Hey Jim, Thank you for your reply.

This is a case of you get what you pay for. The premium that you pay to a US dealer is for the after sale support (hopefully). Personally I would not buy an expensive machine directly from the manufacturer in China. The only machine I have bought from China was a cheap table top 24x48 kit because I just needed a quick and cheap XYZ positioner for a non-machining project. I tossed all of the electronics in the misc. parts bin and installed my own controls. I'm pretty sure you could install Mach3 on any of those machines without too much difficulty.

Agreed, I would be going in expecting not much support from the manufacture at all and relying more on the community's help since they are all pretty similar and somewhat cross-referable. This is my least favorable option as I feel like I can get a lot more for my money if I go the used route.

I don't know anything about the AXYZ machines, but I do have some experience with the MultiCam machines. They seem to be well built for a mid-range machine. I do find it to be a nuisance that the controller will not allow many functions that I like, but the system is designed for the operator rather than a tech. Loading the program is really not that bad, you can do all the editing/design off of the machine then just select the edited file to run. My Multicam customer just has a laptop on a bench between his machines and is able to do all of the editing on the shop floor. The laptop is connected via serial connection to both machines, the newer MultiCam machine use ethernet connections for file transfers. Most of his work is aluminium also. MultiCam wants to charge for support also. It would be relatively easy to convert a MultiCam router to Mach3. Many MultiCam routers can operate on single or 3 phase power. You might also look at ShopBot machines, the only one I personally know of seems to be working fine for their needs.

Can you elaborate on the missing functions the controller wont allow? Is converting the multicam something an average person with some understanding to cnc could do or will it require more understanding of the wiring and controls and parts? (I was looking at a thread where some guy was converting an older biesse with linuxcnc and messa cards and have no idea what he was talking about so converting/retrofitting seems out of the question)

Before considering a full on industrial machine, look at the power requirements and the power you have available in your shop. I'm pretty sure in all cases they require 3 phase power. I bought a 4x8 Thermwood basket case and had to replace the 10KW spindle with a 3HP because I didn't have enough power available to run it and do not have 3 phase in my shop. The machines are built for hard industrial use, they are substantial and accurate. I would look for a machine with a dead computer and plan on installing my own control system. Mach3 would not be a good choice for these machines. While it would run the machine, there would be a loss of performance. The existing computers have some method of loading files, normally the files are generated off line using some standard CAM software and the machines are connected to the shop network for file transfers.

I am fortunate to have 400amp service with 3phase so that is not an issue as my shop is already set up for it. What would be your control system of choice? I'd love to look into it and explore all possible options!

[ger21]

Before considering a full on industrial machine, look at the power requirements and the power you have available in your shop. I'm pretty sure in all cases they require 3 phase power. I bought a 4x8 Thermwood basket case and had to replace the 10KW spindle with a 3HP because I didn't have enough power available to run it and do not have 3 phase in my shop. The machines are built for hard industrial use, they are substantial and accurate. I would look for a machine with a dead computer and plan on installing my own control system. Mach3 would not be a good choice for these machines. While it would run the machine, there would be a loss of performance. The existing computers have some method of loading files, normally the files are generated off line using some standard CAM software and the machines are connected to the shop network for file transfers.

I've been using machines like this for 20 years. A full on retrofit is not for the faint of heart, if you want to get everything working.
I know someone who's converted a few of these to Mach3, and he's switching to UCCNC for future retrofits, as it performs much better.
Depending on the age of the machine, it may be running a standard PC. Our 2007 Morbidelli runs a standard Lenovo PC, connected with a serial port to the machines control.

The one thing with older machines like this is that some parts can get very expensive, and the older they get the more the parts cost increases.

[Jim Dawson]

Hey Jim, Thank you for your reply.

My pleasure

Agreed, I would be going in expecting not much support from the manufacture at all and relying more on the community's help since they are all pretty similar and somewhat cross-referable. This is my least favorable option as I feel like I can get a lot more for my money if I go the used route.

Given that you have a commercial shop, it would seem that a more substantial system would be a benefit.

Can you elaborate on the missing functions the controller wont allow?

Things like on screen diagnostics, a DRO, preferably some graphics to see what the machine is doing, being able to go in and change operating parameters if needed without special software. Generally the things that Mach3 provides (which is not to say that I'm a fan of Mach3)

Is converting the multicam something an average person with some understanding to cnc could do or will it require more understanding of the wiring and controls and parts? (I was looking at a thread where some guy was converting an older biesse with linuxcnc and messa cards and have no idea what he was talking about so converting/retrofitting seems out of the question)

The MultiCam machines that I have been involved with use a simple step & direction output from the controller, just like Mach3 does. So in order to convert a MultiCam to Mach3 all you would have to do is remove the existing controller, and connect the breakout board from Mach3 to the appropriate wires. There is some complexity, but pretty straight forward. It would take me about a day to do the conversion, but I'm old and slow.

Upgrading a more industrial machine would be a major undertaking because of the complexity of the existing controls. Probably not something the average user without a reasonable understanding of industrial controls would want to do.

I am fortunate to have 400amp service with 3phase so that is not an issue as my shop is already set up for it. What would be your control system of choice? I'd love to look into it and explore all possible options!

My prefered control system is mine of course. Centroid would be a good option also. They have kits available for most industrial routers.