The Newest of the Newbies

[timbot1982]

Hi, I'm very new to CNC machining so please forgive the ignorance of my questions! Basically, I own a small art foundry and am wanting to branch out into using CNC milling machines and lathes to help me in making high relief sculptures and statues (they would range from quite small to 7 meters high and be made in materials such as foam, wood, and stone).

For a large CNC 4 or 5 axis milling machine or lathe to do the sculptures that are up to 7 meters high, I see that there are new machines from makers like OMAG that are around $200,000. Does anyone know if you can get machines that are used or refurbished that can handle such projects for cheaper, or would these older models not be capable of doing such intricate work?

Let's say I wanted to start smaller with a 4 or 5 axis machine or lathe that could handle a statue which is less than a meter high. Anyone know price ranges for such a machine, either new or used/refurbished?

Thanks for any info

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

timbot1982, I may be wrong, but I believe you've misplaced "0". A 4 or 5 axis mill with a capacity of 7 meters will more likely be in the million(s) dollar range. Even an older machine with those capabilities and capacities will be far more than $200,000, especially 5 axis. Maybe if you have an existing piece of iron (machine) that can be retro-fitted or remade into a 5-axis machine you MIGHT get it done for $200,000. Even that is unlikely.

Dick Z

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

timbot1982, I feel like I owe you an apology, I ASSumed you were referring to metal art work of rather large dimensions, mostly because of the "milling machine or lathe" reference.

If you are referring wood or other material to produce art or patterns for casting the pieces you may be able to process them on less expensive machines.

If you can give us a more detailed description of the workpieces, we (members of the 'Zone) might have better answers than my ASSumptions.

Also, how are you intending to program a 5-axis machine?

Dick Z

[timbot1982]

Well, as I stated before, I'm incredibly new to CNC machinery and don't even own a piece yet, so you'll have to excuse my ignorance on the subject. For instance, I was aware that CNC machines for art required programming, but thought it was something a novice might be able to acquire with some education because of places like the digital stone project: http://www.digitalstoneproject.org/ . I thought, if non-technical artists like the founders of digital stone could be doing these awesome things, then perhaps my foundry could branch out and do the same with the right machinery. I found out from digital stone what machines they use (OMAG's) and looking at OMAG's gallery site (of the sculpture they make with their machines): http://www.naturstein.it/ . That pretty much sums up what I'd like to do, although I'd also like to work in materials other than stone (such as wood and plaster of Paris) in order to make decorations for moldings, furniture, mantels, etc., which would employ high relief and undercuts. Here's some more links of places doing "what I'd really like to do":
http://www.scantech.dk/applications/...iardiello.html
http://www.scantech.dk/applications/...ndustries.html , http://www.scantech.dk/applications/...ndustries.html , http://www.scantech.dk/applications/...le--texas.html , http://www.scantech.dk/applications/...-sons-co..html ,

[ger21]

That digital stone project site is pretty cool. But, I have to believe that a 5 axis stone machine like they are using is quite a bit more than $200K. I also looked at the Italian Omag site, and noticed they have used machines on their site, but I didn't look any farther.

One thing you should be aware of is that a stone machine is only going to do stone. You're not going to be able to do wood and stone on the same machine. Just a guess, but I think that even a 5 axis machine to do wood or foam will start at about $200K and go up from there.

You could save a LOT of money on a used machine, if you can find one, but getting support on older machines can be very difficult and expensive. Check with people selling new machines for leads on used ones. They usually know when used ones come up for sale.

I think you're going to find the learning curve a bit steeper than you think, but should be manageable with training. Keep in mind that a good high end laser scanning package and 5 axis CAM software can run from about $25K-50K. Will you be scanning models for all your work, or do you want to create models digitally? If so, you'll need to learn a 3D modelling package capable of the work you want to do. Learning curve there might be even steeper.

I'd suggest spending a very long time researching your needs, and talking to machine sales people to get a better understanding of what you need and how to go about doing it. Not sure if you'll get much info here, as it doesn't appear that there are many people doing what you want to do.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

timbot 1982, In your opening post you mentioned 7 meters high. Could you get the majority of the product in less height? Could they be made in sections to be joined together after machining? (I noticed some of the relief panel artwork in the examples are joined sections)

If you browse the woodworking threads you might find some interesting ideas. Check Art Ransom's threads.

Somehow I can't associate $200K and a 7 meter (23 ft.) high machine in my mind. 7 meters horizontal on a wood/foam router, maybe. But that's not my arena, I deal with metal cutting machines.

Dick Z

[awerby]

for less than $200k, but you'd be trading time spent for money saved. Stone is about the most difficult material to deal with, and the machines for doing it are commensurately expensive. It requires great rigidity, water cooling, and absolute protection of all sliding surfaces from waterborne grit, which gets everywhere. Metals, especially steel, are also high on the difficulty scale. But if all you want to cut is foam, then it's a lot easier to put together a machine that can do the job. If you want to cut wood, you'll need a lot more rigidity, but not the massive structure that stone or metal requires. If small pieces are part of what you want to do, then starting with a miniature machine might make sense; these are a lot more affordable but work in basically the same way as bigger ones, while any mistakes you make will be on a smaller scale.


Yes, a 7-meter 5-axis machine would be nice, but starting smaller might make sense for you. I'm doing sculptural-type work on a 4-axis machine we built in the shop over the course of the last year; it's just now starting to work for us instead of the other way around. I went through a similar thought process to you; wanting something huge I couldn't afford, and then scaling back my ambitions to fit my resources. We wanted something that could handle something about 30" in diameter and about a meter in length, and I couldn't find any affordable 4-axis machines that can do that. Our machine was built from surplus actuators and an Ebay rotary table with a steel frame, so much of the hard part - mounting the ballscrews and slides - was already done for us. Still, it was very handy to have another smaller CNC machine to make our motor plates etc. This sort of project is something that takes some working up to, if you want to do it yourself. But if you want help with building something like that, I can't think of a better place to come to.

I agree with ger21, that perhaps the first thing you might want to spend money on is the scanning and modeling part of this. There's a learning curve to all that, and a certain investment of time and money is necessary. But once you have a digital model, you can send it out to be produced, and take advantage of other people's previous investments in machinery and the knowledge required to use it. That way, if your client wants something in wood or metal, you can send it to someone with a wood router or a VMC; if they want something in stone, you can send it to the Digital Stone Project and pass along the fees, without having to capitalize all this different equipment.

Andrew Werby
www.computersculpture.com

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

timbot1982, Check this out, might give some ideas.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53312

Dick Z