The FairTax... Yes, No, Maybe So, I Don't Know or Other

[HayTay]

While browsing through a used bookstore recently, I picked up an almost new copy of THE FAIRTAX BOOK by Neal Boortz and Congressman John Linder. An interesting read to say the least. You can read a brief summary of HR 25, The Fair Tax Act in this document Executive Summary: The Fair Tax.

It was fascinating to learn some of the history of the US Tax Code, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. Like most Americans I dread filling out Federal, State and Local income tax forms every April 14 (yes, I procrastinate). After much frustration, only partially relieved by cursing, I wind up thinking there has to be a better way.

The question is...

Is The Fair Tax Bill (HR 25) a viable replacement for our current tax system? Temporarily putting aside any deep seated political and/or emotional feelings, why or why not?

Here's the kicker. If you had the chance to start your own country and set up any tax system you wanted in order to pay for public works projects and infrastructure (roads, bridges, defense, etc.), how would your tax system be implemented?

Inquiring minds (mine) would like to know,


Maybe you've seen the logo (below) and didn't know what it was all about.

[pntbllrsprky]

ok I voted need more information on the poll.

But after reading the about page on their site, I could go either way.

My feelings:

According to this, medicare, social security, and stuff like that are gone, which I agree with (I for one am against welfare, I have a small exception to this). No income tax. I assume there is still property tax. This is supposed to give us more money? Or rob people of their's?

Things aren't going to be cheaper. People will be happier that their is no income tax, medicare, and social security being taken out of their paycheck, but all that money you get extra from that, will just be used to pay the higher sales tax on items.

If the government wants to make money, they can get rid of things that bill says, without restructuring our entire tax system. Also I don't think this would rid of the IRS..

No without getting into politics (too much), my solution to this is with the spending of the tax money. Take the hundreds of billions a year spent on welfare. Without getting rid of it, I would make it a limited opportunity. You get it twice, ever for a year, and they can not be consecutive years. Honestly it isn't that hard to find a job SOMEWHERE. I understand things such as disabilities, unemployment, and stuff of that general nature, but it has to be limited.

That alone would save the US billions, without having to restructure our tax system, with one I am not convinced would work, or be well received. I personally think their is more important things to spend money on then feeding someones kid (or maybe buying someone drugs) because they don't have the desire to fix their problem. We can start by fixing the infrastructure in our country.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Fairtax? oxymoron? sort of like "army intelligence".

[HayTay]

Originally Posted by RICHARD ZASTROW Fairtax? oxymoron? sort of like "army intelligence".

HA! Good one Richard!

Maybe Richard has a point, though. Maybe 'The Government' should do away with all 'taxes' and, instead, charge a fee for each of its services. In other words run the country like a business. The added benefit is that 'The Government' would very quickly find out what its 'Citizens' really wanted, and quick. Profitable services would continue, unprofitable services would ditched in a hurry or revamped to lower operating costs, and overpriced services would be forced to be "put on sale".

Roads, bridges, and tunnels could be billed by the mile with a weighting factor such as the vehicles weight, age and/or fuel efficiency factored in. If you wanted to enter a government building you would have to ante up a $2.00 cover charge. Leave for lunch and have to go back, whoops, that's another 2 bucks. Attend a 'Government' sponsored art exhibit, that's $20.00 ea./adult and $10.00 a head for children. Trash pickup, $1.89/lb. And if you decide not to pay the $1.89/lb. for trash pickup, then it'll cost you $9.99/lb. and $100/hour for a work crew to clean up your property! And on, and on. You get the idea.

Heck, we pay taxes and we still have to pay for marriage/dog/business/drivers/other licenses (government issued), vehicle inspections (government required), toll roads & bridges, copies of government documents and a bunch of other items that should be 'covered' by our tax payments.

If you get into a vehicular accident and happen to hurt a guard rail, a telephone pole, a bridge, or some other government funded item that 'The People' paid for, 'The People' don't get the bill for the repair, YOU DO! 'The Government' put it there for 'The People's' safety, and it worked. 'The People' that put the first, pristine, one there should foot the bill for having the damaged item replaced for 'The People'. In case you're wondering where that came from, I'm the proud owner of an overpriced section of guard rail along the northeast extension of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Who knew? OH, and by the way, someone else had already hit the same section of guard rail, what a racket. Hmmm, I guess I'm in a general partnership re that section of guard rail. If anyone else hits my guard rail, be sure to send a check for $1800 adjusted for inflation to me, PRONTO. I'll make sure my partner gets their half.


Well, that's my rant for the day. Hope that provoked a few thoughts or at least brought a chuckle to someone who needed it.


(cheers),

[Mariss Freimanis]

The only "fair" tax is:

a) A flat tax. I get one vote for any election, the same as any other person. I should have to pay the same tax percentage as any other person. If I have to pay a higher percentage then I should get the same percentage of more votes. Otherwise it is a tyranny.

b) Have a fair tax rate. If I want more money I have to work harder. If the government wants more money it raises the tax rate. When I work harder, I have to produce more. The government seemingly has no similar obligation. Without that obligation, it indulges itself in mischief with my money. Set a rate, tie it to the growth of the gross national product (GNP).

Mariss

[Ken_Shea]

Mariss Freimanis,

Could not have been said better !!!!!

[Mariss Freimanis]

Thanks Ken, I'm emboldened now. With that newfound and foolish braveness I want to start a revolt, right here, right now on the CNCzone.

The CNCzone used to be just that; stuff about CNC. Nothing else. It was a welcome respite from all the political stuff infecting every other place on the internet. A Camelot if you will; a place protected against what's going on elsewhere.

Well, political zealots cannot ever be let that be. They are an infectious agent that isn't satisfied until every remote corner is polluted with their disease. The infection came to the CNCzone via CNC Clubhouse. That was the portal of entry, the cut in the skin that admitted the bacteria.

I see people fighting back; look at the "Global Warming Poll". 2/3rds say "I love it, it's a good thing". Never mind the merits of that whole silly global warming popular idiocy. I see the votes on that poll as a rejection of what is happening to the CNCzone. People say "It's OK" only to voice their anger against the hijacking of this website by the politicos.

We can do more than that. How about someone, anyone, coming up with a poll that asks "Should the CNCzone be de-politicized?" No political comments or causes or panics-de-jour allowed at all? Now that would be a terrific poll. People could really say what they expect and want from the CNCzone instead of what it is becoming.

Take heart. The people that are hijacking the CNCzone number only 1 or 2 individuals. They are persistent and dedicated though. They use a number of aliases to make themselves bigger to impress you.

They aren't though. They are sorry little non-functional little husks of human beings that find their release and purpose in life controlling thousands. See them for what they are. Think of the Wizard of Oz. Remember when outed the wizard said "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.".

Please, somebody, somewhere, start a poll that matters. Ask "Should the CNCzone be de-politicized?" Let the membership vote. They will in droves. Maybe management will take notice and throw the political termites out before they kill this place. Take back what used to be yours. Stop this infection.

Mariss

[dertsap]

i thought the cnc in the name cnczone was the admins initials
now it makes sense why so many machinists hang out on this site

[HayTay]

Mariss,

I thank you for your replies. I realize that this is a question having political ramifications but I wasn't asking to further any political ends, including mine. Quoting my initial post, "Temporarily putting aside any deep seated political and/or emotional feelings, why or why not?"

That is one of the reasons I haven't yet voted in my own poll and made it a blind poll so that no one should be able to know how any individual voted. I was reserving my right to vote until after I received other views, options, suggestions, etc. as put forth by other CNCzone members. We are a rather diverse crowd of almost every age, gender, nationality, and race and I was looking to expand my horizons. We work for others, own our own businesses, are planning to start businesses, are starting out on our first jobs, are planning on retiring, are retired, are disabled, are on disability and are anything and everything that I missed. For the most part we all pay taxes (I hope). As a group, and individually, I value the opinions (both good & bad), help, advise, friendships, comradery, and information shared on one of the best forums around (Thanks, Paul).

As to taxes, I'd like to minimize the amount that I have to pay by somehow finding a way to make those that don't pay taxes PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE. However that's accomplished is OK by me. Recently I've felt that I've been getting TAX RAPED. I pay Federal and State taxes then have to turn around and pay a vehicle tax. I then have to pay more taxes when I purchase gasoline. On top of that if I purchase a meal, or a bicycle, or food, water, shelter, shipping and handling, etc. I have to pay a sales tax that goes to the State and/or Local Government. Didn't I already pay the State when I filed my income tax return? Heck, yeah! Now my State is trying to convert several highways/thoroughfares to toll roads. What gives? I thought I already paid taxes; Federal income tax that subsidizes State projects, State income tax that is supposed to be providing infrastructure, Vehicular tax which pays for highway related items, Gas taxes that pay for road maintenance & improvements, Sales tax that pays for ??? That doesn't even count Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security taxes.

I'm seriously starting to try to figure out what my REAL tax liability is as a percentage of my gross income. It's looking like the figure is somewhere between 40-55%. HOLY COW. Either the government is wasting a lot of money or a big chunk of the population isn't paying taxes (or enough of them). What gives?

Ok, like Mariss, I'm getting worked up.

Seriously, though, I'd like others opinions, experiences, ideas, etc. If Mariss, or anyone, has any further information on how the FLAT TAX will work and how it will make all wage earners pay their share of taxes I would like to hear it. I understand the basic principle, everyone no matter how rich or poor pays the same tax rate based on reported income. The 'reported income' part is what bothers me, though. I'd seriously appreciate the information.

What happened to "no taxation without representation" and the supposed "no double taxation" standards?


I'd like to learn more so...

Thank you for your time,

[Mariss Freimanis]

Good grief.. It's the global warming idiocy splattered all over that chaps my hide, not this subject.

Mariss

[HayTay]

Originally Posted by Mariss Freimanis Good grief.. It's the global warming idiocy splattered all over that chaps my hide, not this subject. Mariss

That was quick, Mariss. I'm sitting here laughing my butt off. Next thing you know my wife will come home and trip over the darn thing.


In the mean time, here's some info I dug up on the Flat Tax.

A Brief Guide to the Flat Tax by Daniel J. Mitchell, Ph.D.

Flat tax, From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


L8r,

[Geof]

I read both of them, admittedly fading a bit on the Wikipedia one in which I found this:

Ensuring simplification
Adopting a flat tax with its attendant simplicity may be all well and good, but it is unlikely that it will remain simple over time, given the realities of interest group politics. While all flat tax proposals propose to eliminate nearly all deductions and credits, most envision keeping the mortgage interest deduction and possibly some others (note that Hall and Rabushka 1995 do not). [citation needed] Legislators will be unable to resist the annual temptation to tinker with the tax code in order to advance certain policy objectives and to buy votes. [citation needed] Eventually, the tax code will become bloated and complex again. [citation needed]

I agree so why go to all the hassle of changing things just to get eventually back to the same condition.