ICE running on water

[chronon1]

Have any of you seen the vid of S. Meyer's hydrogen on demand dune buggy ?

looks promising - they claim there is more energy in a gallon of water than in gas ? wow, i guess when you crack the hydrogen and oxygen out of water you release alot of energy - ...

i know you can run an ICE on Hydrogen, just that it 's always been said that it takes more electrical power to make the H than the power you get out of running the ICE -- but Steve's process sends square pulse DC at high frequency that (supposedly) gives more out than you put in , making it viable .... well, the video of the dune buggy running sure looks convincing !!!!

Its the
step 6. Install the stainless steel valves and get the pistons/cylinders coated with ceramic.
and
7. Coat the exhaust system with ceramic

That has me worried ... where do you get SS valves ? and have the pistons and cylinders and exhaust coated with ceramic ? this sounds pretty exotic .. coating the exhaust can bedone but
the pistons and cylinders are a lot more critical .. can you 'hone ' the ceramic after it's quoted ? .. maybe some of you guys are familiar with precision ceramic coating ....

[Geof]

Originally Posted by chronon1 .....i know you can run an ICE on Hydrogen, just that it 's always been said that it takes more electrical power to make the H than the power you get out of running the ICE -- but Steve's process sends square pulses at high frequency that gives more out than you put in , making it viable ....

"that gives more out than you put in"

The politest comment to that is horsefeathers. When you electrolyse water to generate free hydrogen you always have to put in more energy than is available from the recombination of the hydrogen produced with oxygen again. Furthermore when you burn the hydrogen in an ICE the efficiency of that process alone is less than 30% unless you have a very magic design engine.

It is possible to make an electrolysis cell that apparently generates more hydrogen than could be expected from the electrical energy supplied. All you need to do is incorporate metal electrodes which are oxidised during the electrolysis. The oxidation of the metal generates the additional hydrogen but if you do not take that into account you can come to the conclusion you are getting more out than you put in. Really what you are doing is using the metal as a fuel indirectly.

In a recent issue of New Scientist there was an article about an electric vehicle 'running on water'. In fact it was running on the metal boron which reacts spontaneously with water to produce free hydrogen.

There is also a company called Hydrogen Power Inc which touts a hydrogen generation system using aluminum. go to:
http://www.hydrogenpowerinc.com/techdiagram.html

Which is ridiculous because the amount of energy needed to refine the aluminum in the first place is far greater than the energy obtained from the hydrogen produced.

[miljnor]

I am always amazed by the argument people produce when talking about a new product. "Its not as efficient, so don't go there" While this is very true to a big extent it is again not the whole picture

If you look at the beginnings of ICE you wouldn't see efficiency either, but it was still done, because you could go faster and not have to take care of your horses (or so they thought at the time)

This argument is like "well if its a new technology and it can't be as good as something that was developed for the last 100 years (and is still being developed) then I don't want anything to do with it.

I think the idea is to circumvent the fire drill that will happen when we get low on petroleum, not wait until it runs out or until someone comes along with a miracle.

If we haven't been developing some new technology for some time and working the flaws out of it before the old dino is gone we will be in a world of hurt.

It is possible to make an electrolysis cell that apparently generates more hydrogen than could be expected from the electrical energy supplied. All you need to do is incorporate metal electrodes, which are oxidized during the electrolysis. The oxidation of the metal generates the additional hydrogen but if you do not take that into account you can come to the conclusion you are getting more out than you put in. Really what you are doing is using the metal as a fuel indirectly.

So what your saying is that if we find that you can make more hydrogen with the combination of catalyst and electricity it’s cheating???

I thought the idea is to make more hydrogen period. You have to have an electrode so why not use something that helps the process?

And lastly I think you would have to find a way to account for all the effort that goes into making a ICE engine run on gas efficiently, and the effects on the pollution to give a real account of energy transfer. I think people make the mistake that: if we don't have to do anything more than refine the gas then its better but this is far from the whole story.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by miljnor .....So what your saying is that if we find that you can make more hydrogen with the combination of catalyst and electricity it’s cheating??? I thought the idea is to make more hydrogen period. You have to have an electrode so why not use something that helps the process?....

The whole point is that when the electrode is consumed it is not a catalyst; it is being consumed as part of the chemical reaction. Because it is consumed it has to be replaced so the energy that went into refining the material that is consumed has to be included as an input energy

Catalysts are not consumed in a chemical reaction they simply allow the reaction to proceed at a faster rate and they do not alter the energy needed for the reaction. The same effect can be obtained by running the reaction at a higher temperature.

Hydrogen as a fuel does not reduce dependence on fossil fuels, either coal or petroleum because it does not occur naturally as free hydrogen it has to be produced with an energy input. When fossil fuels run out the cheapest and most convenient source of the electricity to make the hydrogen has also run out.

[miljnor]

Hydrogen as a fuel does not reduce dependence on fossil fuels, either coal or petroleum because it does not occur naturally as free hydrogen it has to be produced with an energy input. When fossil fuels run out the cheapest and most convenient source of the electricity to make the hydrogen has also run out.

This is only a partialy true statement because most electricity is generated by fossil fuels.

Electricity can still be generated without fossil fuels just not in the quantities needed for the whole world.

But that is a different problem, we are just talking about Cars and transportation. The whole electrical generation thing is a different subject that often gets lumped together with this one.

My thought on this is that if a car can generate hydrogen from its battery and charging system and some catalystic effect of the electrode and also drive 200-400 miles off of a tank of water. Then at the end of the trip require no more than maybe a new catalyst and water then the aurgument that hydrogen produces less energy than it takes to generate has to be false. Because the car clearly drove several miles and generated its own hydrogen from water and other than the battery no external engery was added.

Everyone throws the "it takes more electricity to generate hydrogen than it produces" I wouldn't know as I don't know the calculations and wouldn't know where to start. But there is the chance that this information is either false or misleading. And if the above example is accurate then I would say someone is fibbing a little to the public!

[chronon1]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=meyer&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=meyer&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=meyer&hl=en

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ey+meyer&hl=en
The Plan

Build and install a low-cost alternative method for running your vehicle (internal combustion engine) on tap water, using off-the-shelf components.

This is simply an efficient way to convert ordinary tap water into gaseous hydrogen and oxygen, and then burn these vapors in the engine, instead of gasoline.

This "minisystem" runs easily from your existing battery and electrical system, and it plugs into your carburetor with simple off-the-shelf fittings.

You will be installing a plastic water tank, a control circuit, a reaction chamber, a hi-pressure carb/FI fitting, and 3 gauges, and then hooking into your existing carb/FI.

The simplicity comes from its being an "on-demand" system requiring no fancy storage or plumbing. You crank the gas pedal or throttle, and you electrically create more vapor for immediate consumption, on demand; low-high flow rate as needed, from idle to maximum power. The only real change is that you are using tap water as fuel, instead of the traditional petroleum-based fuel.

Given a choice, which way would you choose?

Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Does it really work ?
A: Yes; this is well-established technology dating back to stainless steel. But be sure to follow these instructions using the proper mechanical and electrical assembly techniques, as this plan incorporates the best qualities of several techniques.

Q: How does it qualify as "free energy"?
A: If you're paying someone for the water you use, then it is not strictly free. But the alternative is to keep buying into expen$ive ga$oline and its resultant hydrocarbon pollution.

Q: Is it safe?
A: Technically, it is safer than running on fossil fuel because you are no longer choking on your own emissions (health-wise). In general, it is practically as safe as your current gasoline arrangement. You will be installing a few simple safety devices, using current automotive standards.

Q: What kind of performance can I expect?
A: Properly adjusted, your modified vapor-only fuel system will run cooler, and at a modestly higher power level. The mileage performance expected from this design ranges from 50-300 mpg (of water), depending on your adjusting skills.

Q: Can I do the modification myself?
A: Why not? If you don't have any mechanical skills, and you know someone with basic mechanical and/or electrical skills, you can even delegate some of the construction. If you are using a fuel-injected engine, you may have to get a mechanic's opinion. [There will have to be an adapter inserted into the fuel-injection system, just as you would have to do if you were going to run on propane, hydrogen, or natural gas. Ed.)

Q: What is the environmental impact that my vehicle will have?
A: It will be producing H20 steam (water vapor) and unburnt O2 (Oxygen). Hence, it will be cleaning the environment, rather than dumping nauseous toxins into it. Plus you will be helping to save our dwindling supply of atmospheric oxygen. Any excess vapor in the reaction becomes either steam or oxygen. You can also expect to be receiving more than casual interest from those around you.

Q: Isn't this really a steam engine?
A: No. Really. Exceedingly high temperature and pressure are not used. This is strictly an internal-combustion engine (burning orthohydrogen) with residual steam in the exhaust as a by-product.

Read This

There are a few things you should know about gasoline:

Gasoline as a fuel is not necessary; it is optional.

Gasoline versus Water

There is a lot of thermochemical energy in gasoline, but there is even more energy in water. The DOE (Department of Energy) has quoted about 40%, so it is probably much more than that.

Most people are unaware that "internal combustion" is defined as "a thermo-vapor process" — as in "no liquid in the reaction." Most of the gasoline in a standard internal combustion engine is actually consumed, (cooked, and finally, broken down) in the catalytic converter after the fuel has been not-so-burnt in the engine. Sadly, this means that most of the fuel we use in this way is used only to cool down the combustion process, a pollution-ridden and inefficient means of doing that.

How It Works

Exceedingly simple. Water is pumped as needed to replenish and maintain the liquid level in the chamber. The electrodes are vibrated with a 0.5-5A electrical pulse which breaks 2(H2O) => 2H2 + O2. When the pressure reaches say 30-60 psi, you turn the key and go. You step on the pedal, you send more energy to the electrodes, and thus more vapor to the cylinders; i.e. fuel vapor on demand.

You set the idle max-flow rate to get the most efficient use of power, and you're off to the races.

In the big picture, your free energy is coming from the tap water in an open system, as the latent energy in the water is enough to power the engine and hence drive the alternator and whatever belt-driven accessories. And the alternator is efficient enough to run the various electrical loads (10 - 20 amps), including the additional low current to run this vapor reaction. No extra batteries are required.

STEP BY STEP CONSTRUCTION

OVERVIEW - Here is the suggested sequence of steps:

1. 1. Install the CHT (or EGT) gauge and measure your current operating temp range (gasoline), for comparison.

2. 2. Build and test the controller to verify the correct pulse output.

3. 3. Build the reaction chamber and test it with the controller (i.e pressure out).

4. 4. Install the tank, controller, chamber, and pressure fittings.

5. 5. Run engine and adjust the control circuit as necessary for best performance.

6. 6. Install the stainless steel valves and get the pistons/cylinders coated with ceramic.

7. 7. Coat the exhaust system with ceramic without the catalytic converter (or let it rust out and then replace the whole dang thang with stainless steel pipe sections).

YOU WILL NEED

• • plastic water tank with pump and level sensor.
• • control circuit, wiring, connectors, and epoxy.
• • reaction chamber with electrodes and fittings.
• • 3/8" stainless steel flex-tubing, fittings and clamps.
• • carb/FI vapor-pressure fitting kit. - pressure, CHT (or EGT), & level gauges.
• • stainless steel valves.
• • copper mesh junction.
• • ceramic surface treatment for cylinders & pistons.
• • stainless steel or ceramic treated exhaust assembly.

BASIC TOOLS

• • drill, screwdriver and pliers
• • hole cutter
• • wire-wrap, solder-iron and clippers
• • DVM and oscilloscope.

REACTION CHAMBER

Construct as shown in the diagram. Use a section of 4" PVC waste pipe with a threaded screw-cap fitting on one end and a standard end-cap at the other. Make sure to drill-and-epoxy or tap threads thru the PVC components for all fittings. Set and control the water level in the chamber so that it well submerses the pipe electrodes; yet leave some headroom to build up the hydrogen/oxygen vapor pressure. Use stainless steel wires inside the chamber or otherwise use a protective coating; use insulated wires outside. Ensure that the epoxy perfects the seal, or otherwise lay down a bead of water-proof silicone that can hold pressure.

The screw fitting may require soft silicone sealant, or a gasket; its purpose is to hold pressure and allow periodic inspection of the electrodes. No leaks, no problems. Make sure you get a symmetric 1-5mm gap between the 2 stainless steel pipes. The referenced literature suggests that the closer to 1mm you get, the better. You will want to get your chamber level sensor verified before you epoxy the cap on.

Make your solder connections at the wire/electrode junctions nice, smooth, and solid; then apply a water-proof coating, e.g. the epoxy you use for joining the pipes to the screw cap. This epoxy must be waterproof and be capable of holding metal to plastic under pressure. You will want to get your chamber level sensor verified before you epoxy the cap on.

CONTROL CIRCUIT

The diagrams show a simple circuit to control and drive this mini-system. You are going to make a 'square-pulse' signal that 'plays' the electrodes like a tuning fork; which you can watch on an oscilloscope. The premise given by the literature is: the faster you want do go down the road, the 'fatter' you make the pulses going into the reaction chamber. Duty cycle will vary with the throttle in the vicinity of 90%MARK 10%SPACE (OFF/ON).

There is nothing sacred about how the pulse waveform is generated; there are many ways to generate pulses, and the attached diagrams show a few. The NE555-circuit approach (see diagrams) is from the referenced patent. The output switching transistor must be rated for 1-5 amps @ 12VDC (in saturation).

Go with a plan that works for you or your friendly neighborhood technoid or mechanic, and go get all the circuit elements from your local electronics store, such as Radio-Shack or Circuits-R-Us, including the circuit board, IC sockets, and enclosure/box.

DigiKey has better selection, service, and knowledge; plus they have no minimum order. Be sure to use a circuit board with a built-in ground plane, and to accommodate room for mounting 2 or 3 of the gauges. Mounting the reaction chamber in the engine compartment will require running a stub to your pressure gauge where you can watch it.

You can easily make 30-gauge wire-wrap connections between the socket pins and thru-hole discrete components having wire leads. Also make sure to get spec sheets on any IC you use. More details of the best circuits to use will be announced pending prototype testing. You will want to get your chamber level sensor verified before you epoxy the cap on.

Throttle Control

If you have a throttle position sensor, you should be able to access the signal from the sensor itself OR from the computer connector. This signal is input to the circuit as the primary control (i.e. throttle level = pulse width = vapor rate).

If you don't have such a signal available, you will have to rig a rotary POT (variable resistor) to the gas linkage (i.e. coupled to something at the gas pedal or throttle cable running to the carb or FI. If you make the attachment at the carb/FI, be sure to use a POT that can handle the engine temp cycles. Don't use a cheezy-cheapy POT; get one rated for long life and mechanical wear; mount it securely to something sturdy and stationary that will not fall apart when you step on the gas.

Control Range. The full throttle RANGE (idle-max) MUST control the vapor rate, i.e. pulse-width (duty). The resistor values at the throttle signal must allow the throttle signal voltage, say 1-4 Volt swing, to drive the VAPOR RATE. You will be using this voltage swing to generate a 10% ON 'square' pulse. The patent implies using a 'resonant' pulse in the 10-250 KHz frequency range; but it is not explicitly stated so.

In this circuit, you will simply tune to whatever frequency makes the most efficient vapor conversion. You will have to get into the specs for each IC you use, to insure you connect the right pins to the right wires, to control the frequency and pulse width. You can use spare sockets to try out different discrete component values. Just keep the ones that are spec-compatible in the circuit, and get the job done.

You crank up the throttle signal and put more electrical energy (fatter pulses) into the electrodes; verify you can get 10% duty on the scope (2 - 100 usec on the horizontal time-base). Your averaging DVM will display the 90%-10% DC voltage across the output transistor (Vce or Vds or Output to Ground). Set and connect DVM in the supply current and measure .5 - 5 amps, without blowing the DVM fuse. Now verify that you got everything you wanted.

Verify your wiring connections using your DVM as a continuity detector. Check your wiring 1 at a time and yellow line your final schematic as you go. You can best use board-mount miniature POTs for anything you want to set-and-forget. The LEDs are there to give you a quick visual check of normal vs abnormal operation of your new creation. You will want to get your chamber level sensor verified before you epoxy the cap on.

CARB/FI CONNECTION

The diagrams also show that fittings are required to the carb/FI l. There are ready-made kits (such as by Impco) available for making your pressure fittings to the carburetor or fuel-injector as the case may be. You will necessarily be sealing the built-in vents and making a 1-way air-intake.

The copper mesh comprises the inadvertent backfire' protection for the reaction chamber. Make sure that all vapor/duct junctions are air-tight and holding full pressure without leakage. Your new 'system' is considered successful and properly adjusted when you get the full power range at lower temp and minimum vapor flow without blowing the pressure safety valve.

CHT (or EGT)

Monitor your engine temp with the CHT (cylinder head temp) or EGT (exhaust gas temp) instead of your original engine temp indicator (if any). Your existing gauge is too slow for this application and will not warn you against overheating until after you have burnt something. Make sure that your engine runs no hotter than in the gasoline arrangement. VDO makes a CHT gauge with a platinum sensor that fits under your spark plug against the cylinder head (make sure it is really clean before you re-install your spark plug (as this is also an electrical ground).

ENGINE/EXHAUST TREATMENT

Get the valves replaced with stainless steel ones and get the pistons/cylinders ceramic-treated ASAP when you have successfully converted and run your new creation. Do not delay as these items will rust, either by sheer use or by neglect (i.e. letting it sit). You could make max use of your current exhaust system by using it with your new deal until it rusts through, then have your mechanic or welder friend to fit a stainless steel exhaust pipe (no catalytic converter is required). But it could be easier and cheaper to send your existing exhaust system out for the ceramic treatment, and then simply re-attach it to the exhaust ports.



GENERAL

1. 1. Do not discard or remove any of the old gasoline setup components, e.g. tank, carb/FI, catalytic converter, unless necessary. Better to always leave an easy way to revert back to something that at least runs, just in case. Some people are leaving their gasoline setup completely intact, and switching back and forth at will, just to have a backup plan.

2. 2. Set your throttle circuit so that you get minimum vapor flow at idle, and maximum vapor flow at full power without blowing the pressure relief valve. In this way, you control how 'lean' your mixture is by the strength of the pulse (i.e. "fatness" at the optimum pulse frequency).

3. 3. If you just don't get enough power (at any throttle setting), it means that you need to (1) change the pulse frequency, (2) change the gap between the electrodes, (3) change the size (bigger) electrodes, or (4) make a higher output pulse voltage (last resort). Always use an output transistor, such as a MOSFET, that is rated for the voltage and current you need to get the job done. OK so you might have to play around with it some. Isn't that where all the Fun is anyhow?

4. 4. If you get any engine knock our loud combustions (not compensated by adjusting the timing), it means that you need to install an additional coil in the chamber, and drive the coil with an additional pulse signal (about 19 Hz on the .1sec time base). Here, you will be slowing down the burn rate just enough so that the vapors burn thru out the power stroke of the piston. Be sure to include a board-mount POT to set the correct strength of this 2nd pulse signal into the coil. This is a stainless steel coil of about 1500 turns (thin wire) that you can arrange like a donut around the center pipe (but NOT touching either electrode), directly over the circular 1-5mm gap. You want no knocking at any power/throttle setting; smooth power only, but also no excess hydrogen leftover from the combustion.

5. 5. Build the canister(s) as tall as you can without compromising your ability to mount them conveniently near the dash panel, or in the engine compartment, as the case may be. This way, you can always make the electrodes bigger, if necessary without undue hardship. Remember that anything in the engine compartment should be mounted in a bullet-proof, vibration and temperature tolerant fashion.

6. 6. If you have to drill a thru-hole for wiring or plumbing thru metal, make sure to also install a grommet for protection against chafing. Always watch your chamber pressure range from IDLE (15-25 psi) - FULL POWER (30-60 psi). Set your safety-pressure relief-valve to 75 psi and make sure it's rated for much higher.

7. 7. Shut OFF the power switch and pull over if there is any malfunction of the system. Your engine will last longest when it still develops FULL POWER+ at some minimum temperature that we are sure you can find, by leaning back the Royal Vapor Flow and/or by making use of the water-vapor cooling technique. Keep good mpg performance records, and periodic maintenance/inspection. Keep it clean; save some money; clean the air; heal the planet; happy motoring; tell a friend; enjoy your freedom and self-empowerment.

8. 8. There lacks documented material for perfecting this vapor system thru a fuel injector; there may be some details you will discover on your own as working prototypes progress. For example, you may be restricted to inject the hydrogen/oxygen vapor without any water vapor, as it may rust the injectors. If engine temp and CHT is a problem, then you will want to re-think your plan, e.g. ceramic-coating the injectors. There is always "replacing the FI system with a Carb."

9. 9. If you install the water-vapor system (for lower operating temp/stress), you will want to lean the mixture (vapor/air) for minimum vapor flow rate to achieve any given throttle position (idle - max). Make sure that you get a minimum flow for IDLE and a modestly sufficient flow for MAX, that does the cooling job without killing the combustion.

10. 10. If you cannot find stainless steel pipe combinations that yield the 1-5mm gap, you can always regress back to alternating plates of +/- electrodes.

11. 11. If you are concerned about the water freezing in your system, you can (a) add some 98% isopropyl alcohol and re-adjust the pulse frequency accordingly; or (b) install some electric heating coils.

12. 12. Do not let ANYONE ever compromise your dream, your freedom, your independence or your truth.

REFERENCES
• Stephen Chambers 'Apparatus for Producing Orthohydrogen and/or
• Parahydrogen' US Patent 6126794, uspto.gov
• Stanley Meyer 'Method for the Production of a Fuel Gas' US Patent 4936961,
• uspto.gov
• Creative Science & Research, 'Fuel From Water', fuelless.com
• Carl Cella "A Water-Fuelled Car" Nexus Magazine Oct-Nov 1996
• Peter Lindemann "Where in the World is All the Free Energy", free-energy.cc
• George Wiseman "The Gas-Saver and HyCO Series" eagle-research.com
• C. Michael Holler "The Dromedary Newsletter" and "SuperCarb Techniques"
• Stephen Chambers "Prototype Vapor Fuel System" xogen.com

COMMON LAW COPYRIGHT #285714: All rights to the use and duplication of these plans are hereby reserved for the People, in their efforts to heal and restore the environment. Dare to express your uniqueness and environmental ideals. This technology is an exercise in responsible self-determination.

DISCLAIMER: The Spirit of Ma'at LLC and the Spirit of Ma'at ezine and the author of this document assumes no liability for the use or misuse of this information; which is made available as public-domain information and free of charge, for the purposes of education, ecology, health, well-being, freedom, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

http://netmar.com/~maat/archive/watercar/h20car2.htm

[miljnor]

well the proof is in the pudding so to speak. There should be enough information on the web to build one of these and what the heck i got time! It might take me awhile but I have a 69 bronco just dying to have a hydrogen inake put on it!

will let you guys know, but chances are it will take me a year or more to put something together

[chronon1]

Originally Posted by miljnor well the proof is in the pudding so to speak. There should be enough information on the web to build one of these and what the heck i got time! It might take me awhile but I have a 69 bronco just dying to have a hydrogen inake put on it! will let you guys know, but chances are it will take me a year or more to put something together

How's the progress coming ? I had a 77 chevy vandure25 that I put a hydrogen
maker on .. it was a pvc deal with aluminum & copper electrodes into salt water or radiator fluid ( conducts better than salt water) -- and then the output was lined intod the single barrel carb or to the air intake of the air cleaner .. it seemed to run more smoothly / help the mpg slightly .. but i didnt have SS electrodes or a fancy kilohertz dc square wave 90 DC 6-12 amp system going on under 30-60 psi pressure ..!!

[JPMach]

If you guys want "free" energy why not just invest in wind or solar power. Then if you want use this elec to make hydrogen, bottle it and inject it in to your car. Then at least it would be closer to free than using the alternator elec to make hydrogen.

As Geof said the hydrogen running ICE is not that efficient and then if you take into account the efficiency of the alternator and the wiring and all, it just does not pay to make hydrogen in the car. If you used solar or wind energy to make the hydrogen and then put this in the car you would have something. Still to make more efficient use of the hydrogen uae a fuel cell to create electricty and have an electric car.

Making hydrogen inside the car for the purpose of better fuel efficincy just doesn't work, sure it may appear to when you don't look at the whole picture, like forgetting that the small increse in mpg doesn't cover the cost of the electrodes you burned up making the hydrogen or the shortened life of the alternator from making it work harder.

Just my 2 cents
JP

[miljnor]

Originally Posted by JPMach If you guys want "free" energy why not just invest in wind or solar power. Then if you want use this elec to make hydrogen, bottle it and inject it in to your car. Then at least it would be closer to free than using the alternator elec to make hydrogen. As Geof said the hydrogen running ICE is not that efficient and then if you take into account the efficiency of the alternator and the wiring and all, it just does not pay to make hydrogen in the car. If you used solar or wind energy to make the hydrogen and then put this in the car you would have something. Still to make more efficient use of the hydrogen uae a fuel cell to create electricty and have an electric car. Making hydrogen inside the car for the purpose of better fuel efficincy just doesn't work, sure it may appear to when you don't look at the whole picture, like forgetting that the small increse in mpg doesn't cover the cost of the electrodes you burned up making the hydrogen or the shortened life of the alternator from making it work harder. Just my 2 cents JP

So your saying that putting water in your tank and letting the Alternator generate the electricity to make hydrogen to run the engine that turns the alternator that makes the electricity is......what inefficient?

Am I missing something here? or did my brain check out?

If I can run a converted ICE on what amounts to water and a 12volt battery, I am not thinking "wow what a piece of crud, its soo inefficient!"

Chrono :

I probably won't start for awhile yet as I have too much stuff on the burner right now.

I didn't know you made one already.. Although from the sounds of it you had gas going into the carb as well???

let me know the details.

[Geof]

I re-arranged the quotes.

Originally Posted by miljnor Am I missing something here? or did my brain check out? .

This is a loaded question. You are missing something but I am not going to accuse your brain of checking out...that could be a high risk situation.

Originally Posted by miljnor So your saying that putting water in your tank and letting the Alternator generate the electricity to make hydrogen to run the engine that turns the alternator that makes the electricity is......what inefficient?....

Yes, very inefficient, in fact impossible. It takes more energy to make the hydrogen than you get back when the hydrogen burns in the engine. Another energy source is needed.

Originally Posted by miljnor ....If I can run a converted ICE on what amounts to water and a 12volt battery, I am not thinking "wow what a piece of crud, its soo inefficient!"......

You cannot, not just on the battery, see below.

Originally Posted by miljnor ....Although from the sounds of it you had gas going into the carb as well???...

Correct, the carburetter is in full operation supplying a gas/air mixture that keeps the engine running. The hydrogen making system is doing nothing constructive.

However, it is possible that if you did one of these adaptations you may feel the engine is running better; it might even be running better. You have probably come across devices, special carbs, 'plasma' spark plugs, whatever, that were supposed to improve gas mileage or performance. They are not as common these days with engines being almost exclusively fuel injected and all sorts of emission control stuff burying them but back in the 1970s and earlier they were common. Without fail the installation instructions would tell you to perform a routine engine tune up at the same time you installed the device. Without fail if you carefully measured gas mileage before and after the installation you would see an improvement. Obviously the device works, right? Sure; the tune up you did guaranteed you would see an improvement!

There was one adaptation that used to pop to the surface occasionally years back and that was water injection. This can work to improve performance and I think the mechanism is a combination of the injected water cooling and densifying the incoming air fuel mixture and also reducing the tendency for pre-ignition. The big problem is you need a quantity of water similar to the fuel volume and the improvement is not that great.

I suspect this hydrogen generator idea could give a noticeable effect because it may also be acting as something of a water injector. But energetically it is doing nothing; your sole energy source is gasoline.

[Jason Marsha]

Thanks for the link guys. I never even remotely heard of a project like this. It seems Stan Meyer had a hard time convincing know it alls about his invention but if it becomes popular (which it will never be allowed to under normal circumstances) all the nay sayers will jump onto the bandwagon like everyone else.

Jason