what are fair wages

[dertsap]

after taking a part in trashing a gentlemans job post ,ive been thinking , what are fair wages in this day and age , i'm getting into my 40's and see that it is hard for most guys to compare to the wages or they make the same wages that the older guys were making in the 80's ,
when i was a kid in high school looking to become a machinist someday , the wage for a machinist was 18.50/hr ,tool and die was 21/hr , that was over 20 yrs ago , housing gas food etc has gone up a great deal but the wages had stagnated , kids live with their parents til they are thirty , most houses are dual income to keep up ,retirement looks grim for many of us , lots of companies lay off for a couple days to a couple weeks when there is a hint of being slower in production
what has happened here ?
most of us have takin our punches and kicks dusted ourselves off and moved on to the next adventure , most trades have taken the hits not only machinists
i don t know how things are where everyone else is , but the wage gap has finally shifted here , the demand for workers has drove the wages up conciderably over the past two years ,including mine , help wanted signs are everywhere , is it finally our turn for guys my age and younger to compete with older guys who had the same job for a lifetime and be able to have the same wage / purchase ratio ,or is it a false sense of security


what is a fair wage for a seasoned professional machinist , in a profession that isn t only physically demanding but mentally as well , or do we no longer register as professionals and not deserve to make the same wages as most other professions

what's your opinion

[NC Cams]

As a formally trained engineer who took up machining as an avocation, I'm clearly biased. First, let me say that a "machinist" is NOT merely an "operator".

When I started into the engineering field, a machinist was trained very much like an engineer. He often had to 'trig out a drawing in order to make it. I recall seeing machinists tested for a job and were turned away if they looked like lost sheep when handed the test part drawing they were asked to make. Some trade schools merely showed the guys how to run the machine not how to make parts from a drawing.

BTW, the journeyman machinist still does have to trig out the drawing due to some of the poor drawing practices that are tolerated by "ANSI standards".

At this point, even though I am and engineer, I'm not even a decent operator on a mill or lathe. My cam grinding skills are pretty good but my "student" has passend me bye in that regard.

Hobbiest hacker adequatey describes my skill level as a machinist. However, I tend to become a good operator as I use my engineering skills to an advantage whenever I take on a new machining challenge.

In this sense, I'm reminded of a former bosses rant wherein he once said that you could work an engineer "down" but you couldn't work a machine operator "up". "Up" meaning to a higher level of educational skill requirement and conversely "down'.

Depending on the level of industry involvement as in OEM, Tier 1 or Tier 2 or feeder industries, the salary levels in the auto industry WERE quite high. This is clearly in a mode of change.

Tool and die level machinists can got anywhere from $20 to $28 in the various levels of the auto industry. These guys were darn near engineers as they knew as much as many engineers albeit they merely lacked the degree.

Again, this is NOT to be confused with an "operator" who merely loads/unoads parts into the machine which is what a lot of "production machinists" essentially do. These "operators" WERE getting more than true machinists at the OEM levels but those days are coming to an end. Even engineers may be looking for jobs in the auto industry in the near future - read the papers.

Unfortunately, the dilution of the trade with "operators" who pose as machinists, makes the creation of a viable salary range difficult anymore. Moreover, the highly reputed "engineering school grads" who don't know diddly has warped the salary scales at the engineering levels as well.

I"d be more inclined to post a salary level range and it would be highly dependant on what the person could do based on his training than his job title.

A degreed engineer who walked in at an operator level would have a higher wage ceiling potential because he has a higher UP scale movement potetial.

An engineer who walked in with NO machining capability or experience would NOT have the wage ceiling potential of the engineer/operator. They are simply not as rounded as an individual.

An operator who didn't take the initiatiative to enhance his education (trade or engineeing wise) has the poorest wage ceiling potetial as well as the most risk for getting pigeon holed - and/or eliminated when the "downsizing" occurs.

Ultimately, education and experience still will determine your wage earning potential, not merly your job title or the university you got your sheep skin from....

[StealthDumpKits]

...way back in August 1980 my CNC electronic maintenance tech mentor used the term "operator" for CNC machinists. This gentleman had 25 years service under his belt diagnosing and repairing machine tools. However, he had no idea how to run the machine, nor any G-code exposure other than books, manuals, and what he was told by the "operators".

As a fresh faced 20 year old studly cherry electronics tech, I was interested in anything I could learn about machine tools. I'd never seen an industrial electrical print in my life, only electronics. Within 8 months I learned more than what that 25 year man ever knew. And one of the first things I learned was calling a real machinist, who'd spent years in his trade, an "operator" was a first class insult. Second, if you are supposed to fix a broken machine, you better know how it works when it's not broken, including G-code programming.

Education and experience are fundamental, but an open mind willing to soak up knowledge and apply it to the job are more important. Accepting change, embracing new ideas and technology, rather than fighting against it is what will get you ahead. That sad old mentor was just puting in his time until he could retire. He used to hold up his index finger to me and say "If I can't fix the machine with this, I'll call a mechanic".

Anytime I trained a man I'd hold up my index finger and say, "If I can't fix the machine with this, I'll use this instead"....and pointed to my brain.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by dertsap what is a fair wage for a seasoned professional machinist , in a profession that isn t only physically demanding but mentally as well

A fair wage is what the person is willing to accept in fair conditions. Twenty to thirty years ago in your area machinists wages were largely driven by the state of the lumber industry because shops serving the lumber industry, sawmills and pulp mills, were the main source of employment for true machinists. In 1966 a Journeyman Machinist, that is someone who had served a full apprenticeship and had papers, working in a IAMAW certified shop could get $3.10 per hour; in 1986 that same person was getting the hourly rates you mention; a six or seven fold increase. If they were employed. A large part of the increase came about because they could threaten to shutdown big mills that were making lots of money so most times management caved in and gave wage increases that ran way ahead of inflation. Similar situations prevailed in other industries; particularly the auto industry. Wage rates were not determined by the intrinsic values of the person's qualifications or work they performd but more by the disruption that would be caused by a strike.

In the past twenty years both in the limber industry in your area, which has declined precipitously, and the North American domestic auto industry things have changed. During this time it became more and more difficult to hold big companies to ransom by the threat of strike; indeed in some cases a strike was welcome because it could actually save a company money and in some cases it was good mechanism to shut a business down and avoid paying a lot of termination expenses. So during the past twenty years wage rates have largely stagnated. However, there is another way to look at things; instead of just looking at the last twenty years look at the last forty years. During the past forty years the wage rate for a fully qualified machinist has risen tenfold; gasoline prices have barely risen tenfold in the same time, food costs have risen around twofold to fourfold, many consumer goods such as washing machines, TVs, etc have stayed constant in dollars so they are much cheaper now. House prices have gone up but that is partly because people now buy much bigger houses and partly because they do have more free money because so many other things have increased by a lower multiple than incomes. This is also partly the case with automobiles; what you get now for $35,000 bears little resemblance to what you got forty years ago for $3500.

What I am saying in a long winded manner is that you can look at how things have changed over a short time period or a long time period and you can choose whatever starting point and ending point you like to prove whatever you are trying to prove. But, over a period of time that is more or less equivalent to a typical person's fully qualified working lifetime, in other words the past forty years, most people are much further ahead now than they were then.

[dertsap]

so what do you beleave is a fair wage for a seasoned machinist as i had put it earlier , i have seen many guys over the years who have challenged the ticket or completed their apprenticeship while all the while pushing a button , not understanding offset and such and have no idea where to start on a manual machine , sharpen a drill etc

seasoned machinist , which would obviously be well qualified and skilled , but most time not all knowing , this is a constant learning trade ,anyone who does know it all has fooled noone but himself , and will be left in the dust , mind you i've worked with guys who are close to knowing it all ,
what are they worth

[StealthDumpKits]

a seasoned machinist is worth $25-35/hour. In some cases he can be worth millions.

That's plus a million, or minus a million.....

[dertsap]

Originally Posted by Geof What I am saying in a long winded manner is that you can look at how things have changed over a short time period or a long time period and you can choose whatever starting point and ending point you like to prove whatever you are trying to prove. But, over a period of time that is more or less equivalent to a typical person's fully qualified working lifetime, in other words the past forty years, most people are much further ahead now than they were then.

i agree with you on a number of your points , some things such as appliances and such have stagnated in price , so then you beleave that times have caught up to the wages that the big union workers had demanded ? i come from a small area of the country that was mostly union workers , dual income was a luxury not a neccessity ,everyone had all the toys and that is the example that i learned from , at the same time most of those unions are breaking and places such as where i grew up in are becoming ghost towns ,mostly due to automation ,
dual income is no longer a luxury but a neccessity , you know yourself that this area housing is rediculously over priced and it sweeping thru the country , an average single income could never do it
its happening to the companies as well , machine time has gotten cheaper in many shops than what it was a few years ago , its a domino effect ,

i suppose what im trying to proove out of this is what is the future for machinists ,is it going to become the $8/hr button pusher with only one maybe two key guys holding it all together , I'm still young enough and still hold other skills to bail if that is the future , the going is good now but what is around the corner ,

and Stealthdumpkits i agree except the minus a million

[tobyaxis]

Originally Posted by dertsap i suppose what im trying to proove out of this is what is the future for machinists ,is it going to become the $8/hr button pusher with only one maybe two key guys holding it all together , I'm still young enough and still hold other skills to bail if that is the future , the going is good now but what is around the corner , and Stealthdumpkits i agree except the minus a million

This is a very good question because most production/high volume shops are run in this manor. Most places I go have two or three key guys in their 40's & 50's holding everything together. Without one the company would manage, without two, they may go out of business. Employers complain all the time about how they can't find good help or seasoned machinist. I'm still and always will be learning new tech every day and I'm not a "Seasoned Machinist" but will learn what ever an employer throws at me. So why is is so difficult to find a good job working for someone else for a fair wage. Wages vary so much because most people don't know what they should be getting as a Fair Wage. I'm lucky enough to know Seasoned Machinist but what about the one's that don't?

Early in this career I was vastly taken advantage because I didn't know any better. Now that I do know I see most guys not even close to what I was. The last corporate company I worked for was paying me $3 more dollars an hour than the Seasoned Machinist that was training me on a HAAS. They also hired me to be a Leadman over two other guys. I made it very clear to them that this was wrong and they should appoint a "Seasoned Machinist" to the position. Why is this world becoming so backwards? BTW; I quit that job and went elsewhere to work under a Seasoned Machinist for a lot less money.

[lakeside]

Originally Posted by dertsap ...i suppose what im trying to proove out of this is what is the future for machinists... ,

if you look at the wages of a skilled machinist.Not a Button pusher.His wages will depend on many thing.But location being the main issue.
I've been contracting as a machinist (or masquerading as one) for the past 12 years, in the Boston area.The wages have been the same for the last 10 years $22-$28.Right now I took a 6 month contract as a button pusher,tool changer.The job is thru Aerotek,they are a contract house Button Pushers are now called "CNC Technician" It pays $22 secondshift to babysit a couple of 5 axis.
I took the job for less money because it was 12 miles from my house. I could have taken a contract at $28 but then I would have to go to Boston. At over $3/gal for gas I have more in my pocket and a simple job 4 10 hour shift.
All a machinist can count on is you won't get rich but at the end of the week you'll have food, a roof and beer

[StealthDumpKits]

...when I said minus a million, that accounts for the series of dead parts, broken tooling, and machine tool repairs. At $30/hr, a 10 minute trip to the restroom every day costs $5 plus tax and fringe. Over a year that's $1,250 worth of poop!

[ajl6549]

So how many out there think that the "machinist" is a dieing breed? after all (and I consider myself one, a machinist that is) more and more proto-type work is being done on cnc machines. Do you think at some point we'll be legitimately called "CNC machinists"? (I also set-up, program and trouble shoot CNC machines)

[lakeside]

Originally Posted by ajl6549 So how many out there think that the "machinist" is a dieing breed?

Started to die off the day the first nc was installed back in the 60's