Fist fight at work, can the employee collect unemployment?

[Edster]

I just had two employees that got into a fist fight with each other on the job. I broke it up as soon as I saw what was going on. The police were called and a report was filed. I suspended both employees until furthur notice. I talked with one of the guys (pat) and let him come back to work before the other (jared). The reason for this was that pat contacted me first and tried working thing out. I'm a small shop and can't afford to loose both of these guys. Jared contacted me later that week and refused to return to work if pat was working. I suggested that we give it a little more time for everyone to cool off before we make any final decisions. The next thing I know I'm getting a notice of an unemployment claim from jared. On the back of the form it lists reasons for "sufficient protest" and one of them is fighting. Has anyone had anything like this happen to them? Any advice you can give would be appreciated. Btw my shop is in Illinois.
Thanks,
Ed

[miljnor]

Its a legitamate claim for termination but there are always downsides. Ie. a lawsuite. Did anyone see who started throwing blows? The guy who defended himself would be the one in the right. The other guy is the one that should be fired.

The down side is (if your like CA) you will be dragged into the Unemployment court to waste your time and unless you seriously good at Kissing Arse or a very good legal debator then the employee will probably still collect unemployment.

This has been my experience

[Geof]

I think this might be the important point:

"Jared contacted me later that week and refused to return to work if pat was working"

Jared quit his job, is he really eligible for unemployment?

My company got into a time wasting thing with unemployment over an employee we fired. The laws a different here but one thing I learned was think things through very carefully at the beginning. Pick a strategy and stick with it. Everything ended up in our favor because the employee started dodging and weaving and didn't come up with the same story twice.

[Edster]

In my eyes jared did quit his job. He made no effort to contact me until it was friday (payday) then I get this notice in the mail. The notice said he was dismissed so he even lied to the unemployment office. As far as I'm concerned he's still on suspension.

No one saw the first few seconds of the fight, and as soon as I saw it I ran over and stopped it. It's a good thing I did because who know what would have happened.

[diarmaid]

I'd go with Geof on this one. If you are willing to allow him back to work and want him back at work, but he refuses, then his job still exists and he is quitting. If he continuously refuses to return to work then that gives you grounds to sack him without any backlash onto you. Just one or two things:

1) Whoever was defending themselves is VERY important to know. Maybe talk to the police and see what they are doing about it re. charges etc. If the guy you have back at work was the one in the wrong then your gonna get yourself in a world of s*/t. Have you called them both in individually yet and gotten their stories plus any witnesses? Do you have CCTV, probably not? You really shouldn't have let just one of them back to work without a course of action being decided upon.

2) Is this guy on suspension 'with' pay. If not you may be leaving yourself open. Both in general, if the issue regarding responsibility for the fight is not yet solved, and specifically because the other guy is back and being paid.

3) Do you have an employee handbook issued to each employee detailing dicipline procedures, and most that Im aware of specify that fighting is an automatic discharge and notification of the police? If not, its overdue time to get one done up.

4) Get everything in writing. Get them to submit in writing their stories. Issue them in writing what the company is doing about it (Should have been known previous to fight from employee handbook). This guy who wont come back to work, get him to write you a letter outlining why and then deal with those issues immediately. If he writes that he is afraid of the other guy attacking him, or that the other guy is a danger then sort it out, but he probably wont say something that logical, and will write something that you can use against him in court (But you really dont want it to come to that), such as that he doesn't want to work with the other guy because he's not reasonable, or a bad worker, or something stupid and stubborn. You should have employee files to back up if he is or is not a bad worker, and regardless its not this guys place to decide whos a good worker. You want to be able to stand in court and say that you bent over backwards trying to accomodate him but he absolutely refused to return to work for no logical reason. Then your covered.

5) It may be too late for some of these things and you may want to pay the $100 to see a solicitor for an appointment to get a professional opinion and course of action. At least he could tell you how to phrase any letters you write to the guy. He may tell u straight away that the guy hasn't a leg to stand on (Metaphorically speaking!).

In summary:
Employment law varies worldwide so some of this may not be applicable. But don't let this guy bully you. Tell him to come back to work (In writing), ask why he wont come back (In writing), deal with any issues raised and let him know your going to deal with it (In writing) and after you have dealt with it (In writing). Tell him that if he doesn't come back it will be grounds for dismissal (In writing). And dont forget to keep copies of all these letters. Get a solicitors opinion ASAP just to cover your ass.

Really you NEED to get both guy's in and sort it out with you as mediator. Its probably a mountain out of a molehill. You dont want to end up in court. Is this guy just trying to use this now to get some cash from you and then go get a new job when he knows he wont really win if it goes to court. Remember, its NOT your fault that they had a fight, you stepped in immediately as management as suspended both parties. You did everything right....until you took one back with the issue outstanding. But if you contacted the 2nd guy within a reasonable time of taking the first one back in then it isn't such a problem.

Good luck.

[diarmaid]

Just saw your last post. No-one saw the start...ok. Still get their stories in writing. If jared doesn't agree to your requests to come in and talk to you, and doesn't reply to your letters thats good news for you and will probably get you off the hook legally....maybe send them registered post....
By saying he was fired when he's actually on suspension he's already done one of two things:
1) Inadvertantly admitted responsibility for the fight.
2) Completed strike 1 against himself and his case for unfair dismissal.
He could say there was a misunderstanding and he thought he was dismissed....then you just say "Great, come on back to work tomorrow"!

[diarmaid]

Last point...I promise! In a situation like this often one employee will be quite rightly fired when its determined who was in the wrong, the trick is to treat everyone equally until you get to the bottom of it - - - Key Word = 'IMPARTIAL'.
If this guy does come back you still have the problem of resoving the workplace tension ASAP. Two essential but bitter employees not working together ok could sink your business.

[ViperTX]

Edster......so, one question.....what is your cost if you agree that Jared is eligible for unemployment?

[Rekd]

Originally Posted by Geof Jared quit his job, is he really eligible for unemployment?

Not knowing details... Refusal to come to work due to a clear and present threat to physical (and emotional) health is a valid reason to collect unemployment..

[NC Cams]

Send ANY written correspondence via registered restricted delivery mail with a signature required. Stops the "I never got the letter" gambit.

Do contact a lawyer/solicitor. As previously stated, all employment laws differ from state to state as do your rights and requirments.

Document the dates of any verbal communications and be sure to take DETAILED notes. It may be adviseable to record any further conversations with the involved parties. May not be legally admissable but it sure can come in handy for intimidation purposes.

EDIT:

Do you have a written substance abuse policy??? Mandatory pre-return drug test could make things real simple to deal with.

[RichHagen]

I don't know the laws in your state, but it seems to me that his job still existed, and he refused to return to it, therefore he quit. I would definitely contact a lawyer or specialist in your state. You may have to better document the fact that he was instructed to return to work, and that his position still exists. Then if he doesn't return, he can't claim he was fired. Without documentation, it is difficult to prove what happened. As for the comments on him feeling his safety was in jeopardy on returning, I would consult with the lawyer on that one, and if you do send him a notice to return to work, you may be able to mitigate that claim in that letter. Rich

[unterhaus]

most states will charge you out the wazoo for unemployment insurance if there is a claim against you, on the order of half pay.

It's cheaper over time to keep the guy on the payroll. I know I'm an overeducated wimp, but people should be able to avoid fistfights. I think fighting is not acceptable, and should be a firing offense. There are two sides to every fight, it's very unlikely that the person who threw the first punch was the only guilty party.

Along these lines, I was looking at jobs listings last night. One of the job descriptions included "must be able to work effectively with unreasonable people"