gov grants

[miljnor]

ok we hijacked someone thread so I thought I would start another for people to vent on instead some poor guy looking for career advice!

here is a Pm I got.

Heavy D Heavy D is online now Chip Sweeper Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 27 gov grants Just because I don't own a business doesn't mean I don't bust my ass. It took a lot for me to get where I am and I have done 80+ hour weeks and 20 hours days.. I just don't have the same view of the government that you do. I do plan on starting a business one day.. My problem is getting myself out of the huge debt that I'm in... The gov was giving that money away to someone anyway and we did not threaten to go to the states just to get money.. The money we're getting is peanuts to the 1.1 billion we are spending on this expansion. We do 2 billion in sales per year... second largest auto parts maker in canada.. And guess how the founder started?? With 1 machine in his garage in the 1960's. several years later building a shop on his land (which is still used today). He worked hard to get where he is now (without help from the government). And to this day he still comes to every plant and reviews the tooling we use, the feeds, speeds, every aspect of each product line to make sure we're not spending too much money... He knows is stuff and he is the reason we do well.. not the government... I'd like to hear your take in 20 years when your business get a lot bigger.

First off let me state that if the government was to give me a grant I would take it. But that still dosn't change my view on why they shouldn't give the money away. That just say maybe my ethical views are a bit different from someone elses (and I am not willing to talk about that here, Start a new thread if you want to get into ethical battles)

From a business standpoint lets look at grants:
First you taking money from ALL of you people and giving it to someone else. So basically your taking money from viable working business/people, to promote or keep alive businesses that May (or more likely) may not be around after the grant money is gone. Does this sound good to anyone??? (if it does maybe you should take a good look at your logical thinking process). Wouldn't it be better to not take (or lower) the taxes from all of these working guys?

Ok.

from a person looking at a government stand point. Does the Governement EVER make technologies or invest our money in anything benificial on a consistant regular basis?

If you think yes to this question just remember:
Social security (viable in a few more years I think not) spending 15million on researching Bohvine exhaust of methane (read farts) or maybe some of the better funded things like welfare that gets better after you pump out a few more babies?

Stop me if You get the Idea!

[Geof]

From Heavy D; "Just because I don't own a business doesn't mean I don't bust my ass. It took a lot for me to get where I am and I have done 80+ hour weeks and 20 hours days.. I just don't have the same view of the government that you do."

From the context of your full quote that miljnor had I think you must be talking about Magna and its marvellous founder. So whoop dee doo I am supposed to be impressed because he lost so much money on his horse racing ventures now he has to extort money out of the government.

Let us assume that the amount of money in question is 30,000,000. That is 1 dollar for everyone living in Canada (approximately). If Mr Magna burst into my house some evening, backed me up against a wall and demanded a dollar for every person living there it would be recognized as stealing. But because he does it through the government everything is fine and legal and above board. Give me a break; it is no different ethically. I am being forced via my taxes to contribute to something which will not benefit me and which may have a negative effect on me. The argument that it will save jobs doesn't wash; there are jobs going begging in the Alberta oil patch and the B.C. construction industry. A company in the Maritimes is importing 'guest' workers from Russia because they cannot find people to fill positions.

I have a very simple test for any government activity such as giving subsidies or grants. If the assistance could be given out equally to absolutely every conceivable applicant then it is okay because everyone has the potential of being treated equally. Clearly it is impossible for government to give grants and subsidies to every company so it should not give them to any.

Obviously I have a different view of government to some people; I don't view government as a paternalistic rich uncle that is going to bail me out when I make bad decisions and screw up.

[vacpress]

my parents have owned a company for 15 years. they went from jsut my dad to about 15 employees.. all the government has ever done is take money from them..they tried all sorts of stuff, my mother took over as owner at one point. they considered looking for african american business partners even(to help get a grant, apparently that helps) because it was difficult to compete ina world were they pay aprox. 30% taxes, while other larger companies in the same industry got tax breaks, etc..


i am utterly suspicious of our government(and all of the other governments). they are clearly motivated by ulterior interests..


evil.evil.evil.evil.evil..

at least we have no power at all over it, and as such can feel no great need to protest...

who wants to end up in secret pison?

i totally agree with the assertion that the govt is not supposed to be somebodies poliicaly motivated benefactor.. except maybe college students, and the hopelessly poor..

id rather build homeless shelters than ford motors.. i dont care what it does to the economy. the economy is a fixed game anyways.

[Mcgyver]

Originally Posted by Geof Obviously I have a different view of government to some people; I don't view government as a paternalistic rich uncle that is going to bail me out when I make bad decisions and screw up.

amen brother. unfortunately most of socialist Canada doesn't think the same.

most thinking people want government to make decisions (tough or unpopular) that are right for the country, yet government really wants to avoid controversy and to stay up in the polls. Same problem some companies taking their eyes off of longer term gain in favour of keeping the analysts happy via quarterly results. Hence we get all kinds of spending that has nothing do to with governing or fairness. take the BDC for example - we call it state sponsored capitalism...there's an oxymoron!

I can't think of terms of companies or governments as being evil, they are after all just social organizations, underscored by people. They can be poorly organized, have good and/or mean spirited people within, be aligned or in conflict with your views or objectives etc etc. , but evil or good, nah, save those labels for people. Whenever there is an organization of people, you end up with a multitude of different stakeholder groups - by definition then its impossible to keep them all shiny happy.

Canadians love to believe that its all the fault of the evil corporation or the evil guy in the next tax bracket up from them. It’s a big lie, or rather a diversion. I had lunch with a friend a while ago. He was whining about how the rich don't pay their fair share...made me laugh...I pointed out that @ 500k a year he's the guy most of the rest of the country blames as being the rich bastard not paying his share. "whadda mean I pay 250 in tax" blah blah blah. and so it goes, Canadians have been conditioned to think of the wealth and corporations as being evil. To those inclined to think this way, take a look at countries deploying systems that don't produce the wealthy individuals or strong companies – wanna trade? not very appealing is it.

someone made a comment in the other thread about companies shutting their doors and moving away. It is absolutely true that business goes where its appreciated. the best thing a government can do to create jobs (direct job creation is a vote-buying-joke) is to foster the most conducive environment for business possible. read up on Ireland's home run success for example. While plant closures in the CND & US rust belts in the early 90's were graphic, the more intangible silent job emigration is a much worse problem, largely invisible an cannot really be measured. It this; someone like HeavyD's boss (not Magna right, PVS's Co.?) in the face of an anti-business environment, doesn't shut a plant down but quietly expands of out the country or sources offshore. No measurable jobs are lost, yet the highly tax, anti business aspects of being in Canada most definitely have chased real, value add manufacturing jobs out of the country.

End of rant

[Heavy D]

In the other post Geof, you said "Of course you are doing quite well sucking on the teat of government and consuming taxes paid by companies that don't have the political clout of a bunch of self serving whiners."

All I am trying to say is that the company I work for is ponning off the government.. That money was set in a fund since 2003. Do I agree on the fund? no, but it's there and like miljnor said if he was given the grant, he would take it. I never said I agree with the grant but the fact is, the money is there. It will be used by some business like the millions that have already been used.. The government knows what they want to waste the money on so they're going to seek out the companies the feel will do the best with it.

I think the gov could do a lot better things with the money I work hard for but they're all corrupt... which is why I vote green party... they'll never get in and I can't bring myself to voting for one of the other idiots... but what's done is done and if they wanna give me money, I would take it too..

and no, I don't work for magna... They are the #1 auto part mfg . in Canada with $20 billion in sale per year. although the founder did start magna in the 1960's aswell.

[Bowman]

The wealth of corporations is evil when they pay politicians to do their bidding. Why do you think all retired pols end up heads of lobby groups. I work for big Pharma and I have worked for Big Oil both of which donate more than any others to politicians. So guess who gets to decide which direction law makers are swayed?

They can not give anyone anything they have not first taken from someone else. Thats after their mere 35% administrative fee to spread the money around to all the needy parties is deducted.

My thing is this on Government handouts to business.. If a business fails so be it. If it is a viable business model/product/service to begin with someone else will take it up and start a new one and if they manage it right they will profit. Mismanaged businesses should not have tax payers bailing them out, they took their shot and blew it what makes us think bailing them out now will make them anymore viable and turn a profit this time.

Anytime a company has floundered based on bad management or investments another has always come along to replace it if there is money to be made.

If there was any business out there I would agree the gov should help its the firearms manufacturers. If we lose all them over time we are screwed.

You think that Chinese import tool is a piece of crap.. Wait till our soldiers are counting on the guns we outsourced to China to save their lives in battle.. Doesn't give me warm fuzzy feelings especially if you consider the likely opponent will be the very same people we depend on for our own guns..

Don't sweat it though cuz we have new undocumented immigrant workers who will make sure our lawns are cut and roofs have shingles and after all isn't that what life is really about..

Dem Rep

[miljnor]

End of rant

This is the place now is the time!

Rant away.

You’re right about the "government" not being evil. The problem with most governments is they don't follow their own laws! And that for the most part nobody can do anything about it when they don't.

The problem with politics is that when you get big groups of people together not all of them are going to agree (as state in the previous post) So what generally comes out of a political group is something that is very general and usually very watered down, and thus not very helpful to anyone. Or in some cases when a certain segment of the political branch is way too powerful (almost always the wrong one) you get some hard line fascist laws that really don’t help anyone but the powers that be.

Is this the group you want making all of your decision for you?

I don’t.

I prefer a corporate structure for Business as the CEO has final say and has to answer to his board members. When all is said and done if the CEO worked his but off to get where he is he will work just as hard to make the company profitable. On the other hand this structure would probably suck for a government structure because its not set up to help its employee’s (although most good corporation have good employee relations! Example Microsoft)

One thing a government is good for is keeping the large guys from squishing the small guys (of course getting them to do this is sooooo much harder, after all the big guys put them in office). If you have someone that makes “petroleum products” for instance, while obviously no monopoly exists they do tend to stick together as a group, and this is something the government should control. And while I am all for them making as much as they can get their greedy little hands on. The way I see government is a “structuring mechanism” so that everyone can play fair and too keep excesses to a minimum.


Hows that for a rant!

[Geof]

Careful miljnor you are starting to sound rational. That's no fun .

[miljnor]

sorry!

I will try to rain in all the rational stuff. I have a flu and a fever so I might seam more rational that I am in reality!

[dertsap]

QOUTE miljnor from the last post :Generaly you can tell all the ones that have made a business and those that work for business as to their side of the story on government grants.

hope that wasn t a shot at me !
i dont exactly look at politicians in a good way either , of coarse they are selfserving why else would someone who is making a few hundred thousand a year work as a politician for less , self interest what else would it be , lets think hum maybe because they are good people and want the world to be a better place ,UH YAH
we need people to govern things or we would be living like mad max , and just like everyone else i am fed up with the amount i pay in taxes ,problem is these idiots that we have in government and that we vote for are apperantly are the best weve got,
im convinced and what i m going to do is sit on the poarch with the shot gun and guard my interest,,miljnor if you moved in next door we can do shifts LOL

[dertsap]

miljnor forget that last qoute , miss read it i think

[miljnor]

I am soo confused now reading two posts to answer one!

but seriously I wasn't "taking a shot" at anyone. Its more like I took exception to the idea that government grants are a good thing (not in a million years). Even If the government gave ME several million dollars I would still think it was a bad thing (although I would still be laughing all the way to the bank)

but a word of advice: this is the internet and one of the benifits of it, is while this is an augument(discussion), and they still might make you mad, you don't have to answer with the first thing that comes to mind (in some cases "i would like to start swinging ), you can sit back and come up with an answer that makes you look all intellegent and cool.... Ok maybe not intellingent and cool but at least intellegent.... ok, maybe, just not stupid then.

So in short don't answer right away, or at least until you got the answer to the right question.

insted of like me: I always have the right answer! It just may be for the wrong question!