I love to build new things, but .....

[rlrhett]

I have to agree with PowerNaudio. Your machines are works of art. I think that your instinct is good in that as much as we all would love to see a bigger machine I doubt people are really ready to pay for it. I doubt that once you get up to the size of other commercial vendors you could stay competitive cost wise. I don't know what the market is for a Super Deluxe router table. I don't see a lot of K2CNC machines, I suspect because they are just too expensive for the hobbyist. Sears sold tons of their POS Carvewright machines. As limited and ridiculous as they are, they hit a sweet spot price wise ($1500-$2000).

From reading the posts on this site over the last year or so, it appears to me that the Holly Grail for many hobbyist is a machine with a cutting area of 2x4 to 3x5 (at least a quarter sheet of plywood), with supported rails, rapids in the +100ipm range, that comes in a kit (assembly only, no cutting) or as a complete unit for sub $2,000. Anyone able and willing to pull this off would have a brisk business.

Your machines are somewhat on the other end of the spectrum, although I don't think there is anyone on this forum that doesn't want one of your machines!!!

[Mcgyver]

I've pondered this propensity for AL and have concluded that it is often chosen because it can be machined on light duty home equipment rather than it being the right material from a engineering view point. that may be a very valid reason for its choice, however we need to remember in these instances that building out of aluminum is a compromise brought on by light duty equipment constraints. Al's stronger by weight but not by volume and we're not building aircraft. Still is cheap, easier to fabricate, normalize and is tougher; a better engineering choice. Other factors like machining time, cutting tool economics and shipping costs play to the economic decision, but overall I'd guess steel would produce a better, less expensive machine. There is of course an easier way to wiggle out of the dilemma, just tell 'em its made of billet and double the price

[Mickster]

Eric,

firstly, I would like to congratulate you on the attention to detail you place upon your machines. I haven't yet seen anyone make a complaint about a machine that they have received from you. The rest of us who don't have a Widgit machine...we constantly wipe our chins.

As you appear to be looking for new avenues in building less costly/larger machines are there other processes, such as casting your own rough blanks, that you may wish to explore?

The reason I say this is two-fold.

A) You could cut your machining time by finish-machining a cast part. E.G. fly-cutting a table, tidying up the t-slots, edges & mounting points, along with the same operations on gantry sides etc.

B) You could get to recycle the chips and convert them to new blanks, saving on initial outlay per machine.

The Widgit name is big around here. A Widgit machine is synonymous with very high quality, but a less-than-perfect machine in the creator's eye is still way above what the majority of buyers would be glad to own.

Look at what is sold on the shelves every weekend, and the quality/tolerances/painting of the castings etc. after machining. People buy these machines and don't think twice about the surface finish.

If the machine can hold a tolerance, the consumer is a very happy bunny.

There have been many statements similar to "I would be too scared to scratch/mark it." when talking about a Widgit machine. I think that maybe says something.

Food for thought.

Much respect to you Eric,

Mick.

[Mickster]

Hey, where did all my capitals go in the previous post?

[widgitmaster]

In my office, under the table I have a box overflowing with stuff, and in the back of my mind there is a list of unique characteristics associated with each item in that box! There are V-Groove bearings and rails, Rack & Pinions, THK Rails with dual blocks, brass acme nuts, Delrin acme nuts, ball screws & nuts, and numerous bearings and bushings. Also in the back of my mind is the capabilities of the workshop in my garage, and all the machine shops within driving distance. The various online vender's which sell tools, cutters, fasteners, and raw materials. But within all this clutter, there aren't any resources which offer casting of aluminum.
Now I have some experience with sand casting, but my home is not situated in a way that I could be smelting and smoking (stinking) up the neighborhood. So it would not be practical for me to create a foundry on my property. Therefore, grabbing a big block of metal and machining all surfaces until it looks exactly like one of my CAD drawings, is my best choice! If I have the same block machined in a local shop, they want a minimum of $90/hr to make it on a CNC mill or lathe, or $50/hr to have their manual machinist make it. So in order to keep the cost low, and the precision high, I have to make it myself!

But to build a 24"x24"x10" router in my shop, using the strongest materials such as steel, and still be able to keep the cost to a level where the DIY hobbyist can afford to buy it, is not easy! Right now the economy is really bad, and the cost of raw materials is at an all time high! This makes it even more complicated, and my mind frequents the list of contents under my bench! I have spent many hours in CAD trying to design slide mechanisms using V-Groove roller bearings & tracks, using acme screws & rack gears to move the components. The choices are vast, and If I'm going to commit to building something, I usually explore many choices.

Another valuable list is the many failures, flaws & weaknesses that have surfaced in my projects, as they are the best teachers! For example, an un-supported round linear rail with a distance of 24" would need to be around 1.5" in diameter to eliminate any flexing in the middle. Otherwise, the surface finish from the cutter is poor, and the cutters wear out quickly!

The design I have on my mind at the moment is a deviation of the Midi-Router, one that will give me a strong machine, with a longer travel in only one axis. But in order for me to make long parts on my mill, I had to buy a 2nd vise! I found a nice used Kurt 6" for under 3-bills.

X-Axis: 21.125"
Y-Axis: 8.250"
Z-Axis: 3.900"

This Wide-Router is the result of frequent requests for a long and narrow machine that can make guitar necks! But the quest to build a totally new design using precision linear slide blocks and ball screws is really getting under my skin! I have been pricing various linear components, and raw materials (mostly steel plates). The cost comparison is only a few dollars cheaper than aluminum, and I think I can get pre-ground steel plates up to 12" wide, but no longer than 24". The supplier quoted me $250 for a Blanchard ground hot roll steel plate that measures 24"x24"x5/8" Then all I would need to do is mill the edges square and the T-slots! The most expensive components are the Linear slide block and rails, as a set of 4pc 36" long and a set of 2pc 10" long would cost around $2400 in McMaster Carr.

To be continued.........
Widgit

[chuck99z28]

X-Axis: 21.125"
Y-Axis: 8.250"
Z-Axis: 3.900"

Is exactly what I'm looking for.
Are you going to offer these?

[ZipSnipe]

Hey Widgit,
As always you are the Grand Master of this forum. I think that you put excellent quality into your work and that is where your high cost is. I recently had to put together some crap entertainment center together and almost everything was numbered and lettered and some half ass directions on putting it together. If your not already doing that then you could probably put these cnc machines into kit form without the half ass directions
. Also it looks like your highest cost are the linear rails, have you thought Thompson rails? And aren,t you down in Melbourn? Isn,t there a big industrial salvage yard down there? Probably be a decent source of material. I also found a local steel erector company that sell steel and aluminum pretty cheap and I save on shipping. Maybe you could do the same!! Oh yeah have you ever read Joe Martin,s starting a business? Great advice. http://www.sherline.com/business.htm
Making Money the Old Fashioned Way, by Joe Martin

As always a most generous bow to you sir !!!

[harryn]

Hi Widjit - nice work as always of course.

As you move up to the next size router / mill, here are a few cheers from the bleachers:

1) Please consider to go to size 34 motors, or at least a way to deal with them in the design. It might not seem like it, but in many cases, the electronics cost more than the mechanicals, so it is handy to buy a bit larger motors / drivers than needed, and move them along as we go to larger and larger size setups.

2) The thing I like about Al, is that it will not rust in my garage like steel parts will. It might not seem like it, but we get a fair amount of damp winter weather here, and us hobby people tend to forget to keep things oiled sometimes.

Obviously, steel has a lot of strength / hardness advantage, but you can get a lot closer with Al by going with 7050 or 7075 series Al vs 6061. Price - well, that is a downside.

3) Guitar necks for a size reference. If you are going to make a neck, which not have a router that can make the body as well ?

4) Please consider making the router axis horizontal. A refrigerator size unit would be a lot easier to deal with than an increasingly bigger floor layout. I am doing that for my DIY and the space savings are very large.

If you were offering that sort of arrangement, then I would not have had to build my own. (sized for 4 x 8 sheet)

Just food for thought.

Harry

[widgitmaster]

X-Axis: 21.125"
Y-Axis: 8.250"
Z-Axis: 3.900"

Is exactly what I'm looking for.
Are you going to offer these?

Send me an email with shipping and contact info, and you will be added to my waiting list!

sales@widgitmaster.com

Thanks,

Eric

[widgitmaster]

One of my biggest restrictions is that my milling machine has only 24" of Travel in the X-Axis. so making parts longer than 24" is twice the work!

Thanks for the heads-up on the NEMA-34 motors, as I will need to add that to the bigger routers.



Now, as for V-Groove bearings and tracks, I have found a nice system in McMaster Carr, that will allow me to make a larger footprint light duty router, and keep the cost down! I have ordered some this morning, and will be able to incorporate a design around them!


Now, for a change of thought.....
Last evening I had a brainstorm! What if I were to build aluminum strips shaped like an upside down T, and put a T-Slot in the center of the top edge. Then place several of them in rows about 4" apart, and connect them to an aluminum rail on the ends. Then people could cut strips of plywood or MDF and screw them to the bottom of the T, making as large a T-Slot plate as needed! This idea saves on material, as large plates of Aluminum are expensive!

[ZipSnipe]

I like it! But what if ya just use some like this http://www.mcmaster.com/
McMaster-Carr, just type in "t-track"

[widgitmaster]

I like it! But what if ya just use some like this http://www.mcmaster.com/
McMaster-Carr, just type in "t-track"

One thing for sure, I could never make mine at that price

Scrap that idea
Eric