Big Plus Tooling

[gregfull]

Has anyone used any "big plus" tooling? This tooling is made by Big Kaiser, it comes in 30, 40 , and 50 taper. The advantage is that it is a dual contact tool holder, it contacts the "big Kaiser" spindle of the machine, on the taper and on the flange. Thinking of buying a Fanuc Robodrill, and this spindle comes standard on the machine, you do have the option of running standard tooling though. They claim this is a more rigid setup than standard tooling, the question is, is the price of these toolholders justifiable? Any opinions are welcome. Thanks.

[jackson]

what do they cost "for lets say stanterd holders"? i have always used lyndex but here lately i found bison is just as good and alot cheaper at least in the tap holders

[585integrex1]

if you are doing any side milling or high feed milling they are great, but if you are just drilling and all the load is into the z axis, i would not bother.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

gregfull, Kaiser is a reputable company. The idea of contacting the flange of taper tooling goes back forever. There is good reasoning for it. Contacting the flange gives improved resistance to deflection, improved length control and more than I can think of at the moment. The best at present is the HSK tooling which accomplishes the same thing. HSK tooling is hollow and the taper is expanded within the spindle after contacting the flange surface. If the Kaiser tooling is accurate enough (perfect), it should engage the flange and do what they claim. The problem is there cannot be any dents, dirt or other surface imperfections or there will not be sufficient contact. HSK is a little more forgiving but it requires cleanliness as well. What it all amounts to is take good care of your spindles and tooling and they both work fine. NO damaged/dirty spindle/tool interface will hold tools accurately or securely. ISO or NMTB etc. tooling is designed to have clearance between the spindle nose and the tools flange and rely on the taper for location. The tool has a tolerance to the gage line of +/-.015" and the spindle nose face gage line also has a tolerance of +/-.015". Your tool/spindle interface could be face to face or .030" apart and still be in tolerance.

[jackson]

Originally Posted by RICHARD ZASTROW gregfull, Kaiser is a reputable company. The idea of contacting the flange of taper tooling goes back forever. There is good reasoning for it. Contacting the flange gives improved resistance to deflection, improved length control and more than I can think of at the moment. The best at present is the HSK tooling which accomplishes the same thing. HSK tooling is hollow and the taper is expanded within the spindle after contacting the flange surface. If the Kaiser tooling is accurate enough (perfect), it should engage the flange and do what they claim. The problem is there cannot be any dents, dirt or other surface imperfections or there will not be sufficient contact. HSK is a little more forgiving but it requires cleanliness as well. What it all amounts to is take good care of your spindles and tooling and they both work fine. NO damaged/dirty spindle/tool interface will hold tools accurately or securely. ISO or NMTB etc. tooling is designed to have clearance between the spindle nose and the tools flange and rely on the taper for location. The tool has a tolerance to the gage line of +/-.015" and the spindle nose face gage line also has a tolerance of +/-.015". Your tool/spindle interface could be face to face or .030" apart and still be in tolerance.

Well i hope with any tool holder and mill that the guys keep them clean, my guys clean out the spindal every morning befor loading a tool,

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Jackson, At one time I worked for a company who did on-site machine repairs and re-builds.One of the jobs was to re-grind spindles. You would be suprised at what is done to destroy the tapers. On shop owner who claimed he served his apprenticeship at a bearing manufacturer (who shall remain nameless 'cause I don't believe him) lost a tool in a VMC. His attempt at self repair was to stick an air die grinder into the spindle attempting to "clean it up". Another problem turned out to be the tools themselves. If you check the contact pattern with blueing on brand new tools in a gauge or proven spindle, you will find many do not contact more than 50% of surface area. Some automatic toolchangers don't properly clean tool shanks as well. Does a Fanuc Robodrill have a tool changer? Stuff will happen anyway, Murphy said so.

[jackson]

Originally Posted by RICHARD ZASTROW Jackson, At one time I worked for a company who did on-site machine repairs and re-builds.One of the jobs was to re-grind spindles. You would be suprised at what is done to destroy the tapers. On shop owner who claimed he served his apprenticeship at a bearing manufacturer (who shall remain nameless 'cause I don't believe him) lost a tool in a VMC. His attempt at self repair was to stick an air die grinder into the spindle attempting to "clean it up". Another problem turned out to be the tools themselves. If you check the contact pattern with blueing on brand new tools in a gauge or proven spindle, you will find many do not contact more than 50% of surface area. Some automatic toolchangers don't properly clean tool shanks as well. Does a Fanuc Robodrill have a tool changer? Stuff will happen anyway, Murphy said so.

Dam murphy!!!!! LOL

[gregfull]

I understand the concept of the dual contact systems, I was just wondering if you could get CAT 40 rigidity out of a BT 30 big plus setup. I know there is more to rigidity than just the spindle, but that's a major part of it. One of the machines I'm looking at is a Brother, as standard they come with a coolant spindle flush at each tool change, to ensure that all is kept clean during a tool change. Thanks for the replies, keep'em coming.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

gregfull, I believe a flange contacting type of tool is much more rigid than a taper only tool. Would your machine vendor(s) either test and verify this or possibly give you comparing data on your alternatives? Might be helpful. As was mentioned before, the rest of the machine must deal with the forces as well. Good luck.

[gregfull]

Originally Posted by RICHARD ZASTROW gregfull, I believe a flange contacting type of tool is much more rigid than a taper only tool. Would your machine vendor(s) either test and verify this or possibly give you comparing data on your alternatives? Might be helpful. As was mentioned before, the rest of the machine must deal with the forces as well. Good luck.

I spoke with them this morning on this very thing. They are purchasing both types of tooling for their demo machine. This should give us a pretty good idea.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Great minds etc. etc. etc. If & when you get the results, let us know. Now that you have my attention. lol