Comparing Citizen L32 vs E32 VI

[MadMax]

I've been drooling over acquiring a sliding head lathe for the past few months but have been frustrated with the lack of info online on older models. The L32 isn't too old and I've found some decent info on Cincom's UK dist'r site, but I haven't been able to find much on the E series machines which are a fair bit older. It seems to me that the main differences of mid '90's E series machines and the L series machines is turret vs gang style tooling (E vs. L).

I can see the gang style tooling being a lot quicker than tool changing, but is the difference that great when you've got two turrets which can have the next tool queued up for the next operation? Later E series machines have twin turrets which I think might be faster than a gang setup machine if the tools are arranged in alternating order between turrets. Also, the twin turrets have a much greater capacity for live tools: 20 spots between two turrets) vs. 4 stations on the gang post on the L32. I find that I spend more time setting up live tools than fixed tools so I think it would save me time being able to leave them up on the turret instead of having to swap them out of the few spots available in the L series machines.

I have to assume that there was some strong advantage to a gang style layout over the twin turret setup as the twin turret seems to be disappearing in later models.

Does anyone here have experience with E series and L series Citizen lathes? I'm trying to compare between used E32 VI and a L32 IV machines for an upcoming acquisition.

[onthebumper]

Have you checked out the M32 turret machines? They have both gang style tooling and a lower turret with live tooling. Maybe a little pricier then an L machine but there are many more axis because of the turret.

[ProProcess]

You've already done a good job outlining the main differences between the two models.
To choose between the two really depennds on the work that you do.
If you have jobs that require more ID, and/or milling work, the E is going to give you more tools to use for both.
If you are doing more OD work with some ID and milling than the L should take care of that handily and be much quicker interms of cycle time.
Both are good choices, but you are really comparing apples and oranges.
Good luck with your decision!

[MadMax]

Bugger. I find myself leaning towards an older E32 model now because of the extra live tool stations on the turrets. I can see myself maxing out on live tools on the L series. I've got a lot of parts requiring live tools and having a Y axis on one of the 10 station turrets is a nice option for all of the tools I've got that have critical height issues.

I really wish I could spring for a M32 model, but I'm not close to being able to finance one.

It's too bad that the AGB would probably not be available on the E model lathes.

[PixMan]

Have you given any consideration to other machines such as Star or Tsugami? They also have models with lots of live tools on Y axis, and some may be more affordable than Citizen. All these machines make the same kind of parts, is it worth spending more for a control that's initially easier to use (Mitsubishi), but can be more restrictive when you need to do something outside of the norm. At least with Fanuc controls you can always find ways to override limits.

Look at Star SV32 and SR32J. I forget what Tsugami has in that range.

[MadMax]

I took a peek at Tsugami and Star also. Both have service centers in my area so that's good. For some reason, they seem to be going for a bunch more than Citizen machines that I've been looking at right now. Also, I'm not sure if those models will have an AGB style upgrade option.

I can't say much about the Mits control system, but I definitely agree that being able to modify parameters in the Fanuc control system has been handy with my Daewoo lathe. I've gotten more working area out of my current machine by popping off the sub spindle chuck and altering Z direction limits. Same with the X axis. I didn't realize that the Mitsubishi control system didn't allow that. Still I don't think I'll be pushing the work envelope too much with my planned jobs. I'm looking at 32mm machines because they're a bit bigger than my largest intended part. I plan to keep all of the big parts on the Daewoo fixed headstock lathe and move all the smaller stuff to a swiss machine.

[PixMan]

Automatic (self-adjusting) Guide Bushings are largely a waste of money. I've got by without them for the nearly 20 years I've been into Swiss machines by using Ugine Stainless and other sources for consistently good quality cold-finished stock. On occasion that I've had to run something like a pre-heat treated 1095 steel, it was centerless ground. Every person I've talked to about those fancy guide bushings complains about having to "take it all apart and fix it" on a routine basis. All that really should be considered "required equipment" in that way is a rotary guide bushing.

As for going with a 32mm machine, it can be false economy in the long run. They're less common and therefore more expensive in the used market, but the bigger limiting factor is that of reduced maximum spindle speeds. Most 32mm machines top out at 6000 rpm. The next size down (25/26mm) usually run 8000. You can make a lot more parts at the higher speeds and inmost cases, still never approach the maximum of what the coated carbide inserts are capable of doing. Additionally, most 26/26mm (a.k.a. "1 inch") machines have the same Z axis travel as the bigger ones.

Unless you REALLY believe it's going to get used more often than the smaller size, leave the bigger stuff to the chucker lathe and go kick ass with a smaller Swiss.

[MadMax]

Hi Pixman,

Thanks for your thoughts. I was enamored of the idea of the AGB because I plan to run custom extruded aluminum which is unfortunately rather inconsistent on the OD. I'm also not sure I can get aluminum centerless ground because it tends to clog up abrasive wheels. Maybe I could get it drawn through a sizing die, but that would definitely add a fair bit of material cost and some supply timing issues.

It's too bad that the AGB doesn't seem to be the magic bullet I was hoping for. Has any maker tried a self centering steady rest in a swiss machine?

http://www.ats-s.com/products/workho...centering.aspx

I realize it's probably unfeasible to think that a steadyrest could be retrofitted into the tight confines of a swiss machine. I'm just wondering if any makers have tried something similar with any success. I have a sinking feeling that my aluminum extrusions are going to be problematic. At the very least not being able to run the extruded stuff isn't going to be a deal breaker. I spend a lot of time making other parts out of stock which I think should be fine in a non adapting guide bushing.

I'm interested in a large 32mm machine because I will be making a lot of parts from 1.125" acetal. I also don't know if I can get acetal ground, but it looks like extruders of it are pretty consistent within a production lot so that may not be an issue. I wish I could leave my 1.125" acetal parts on my Daewoo, but the part is on the long side so I have a chatter problem. I'm doing the part in a couple bar pulls which slows things down and adds a length variability. I was really hoping to get the longer acetal parts out of my fixed headstock lathe and into a sliding headstock machine. I did notice that the working envelope of most 32mm machines was similar to 25mm machines, but the envelope is still a fair bit bigger than my largest parts I hope to swiss machine.

I'm looking for a machine which would take half of my current machining time off of my chucker. Obviously I want the swiss machine to do a better job at the smaller parts than the chucker (i.e. at least faster). In the shorter term getting half the machine time off of my chucker by adding a second machine, a swiss machine, to my shop would provide a good value benefit to my shop. A smaller machine would blaze through smaller parts for certain, but I'd still be in a bad bottleneck condition if the chucker still was bogged down with parts that were just a little too big for a 25mm swiss machine. The chucker doesn't do too badly on the smaller stuff. A bunch slower than a sliding headstock machine, but still my smaller parts are pretty quick on the chucker and they're made in ratio with the larger parts in my assemblies so having a super fast small parts only machine wouldn't get me many more assemblies made in a day. My goals are three fold: more than double rate of assemblies machined, machine more consistent high L x D parts, split off parts between two machines so I can have more parts already set up between two machines toolchanging hardware to reduce changeover time.

I'd really appreciate an honest opinion on the AGB from a current user. Would you mind referring me to someone who works with AGB equipped machines?

[UK-Engineer]

Hi there,

I've used AGB's widely both the older type from JBS and the new ones from Citizen. In theory every machine should have one and to be honest for extensive aluminium use I'd say its worth the extra expense as aluminium diameter is always up and down. Aluminium can be ground but again you'd have to weigh up cost difference. AGB's are a bit more fiddly than a standard guidebush and they need cleaned regularly but if you acknowledge the fact that they're different I'd recommend them. Problems arise when users expect to put them on machines and never clean them and everything gets clogged up with chips. Your problem may be getting a AGB fitted to a used machine - if its already got one on it make sure its working and you get some kind of warranty with it!

As for your machine query biggest difference is power advantage and rotary tools of E32 against better control system and speed of L32. I personally wouldn't be too concerned with spindle speed as limitation of 32mm machines is barfeed vibration caused by combination of large bar and high spindle speed.

For what its worth If your parts are capable on a L32 I'd go for that as i always feel its best to get newest technology for your money

good luck anyway

[PixMan]

Good response from UK-Engineer. Though I've not used AGB's myself, I can say that the machine makers would've stopped making and selling them a long time ago if there weren't some degree of success with them. It does seem to be a good idea for aluminum extrusions, if you're prepared to disassemble it once every week or two to clean out the gray sludge of aluminum fines and lubricants that will permeate the mechanism you shold be OK with it.

I might suggest also looking at a Maier machine. Their Fanuc controls come LOADED with virtually all options lit, and they're available in a range of configurations that increase the number of axis and live tools with every model step up built on common bases. The bases are a cast polymer-concrete for ultimate stability, something you might need with the runout and resonanance of an extrusion running at 6,000 or 8,000 rpm. The only downside to those is that of factory support. Since I don't work for them anymore I've got the word that response is slow, judging by the number of customers of theirs that still call my cell phone number. (I answer and try to help those customers though, as I consider most of them friends.)

[MadMax]

Thanks for your insight UK-Eng'.

I can see how an E32 would have a higher power output live tool. The gear transmission train is a lot closer to the turret than through the spindly mounting posts on the L32 build.

I find myself leaning towards an L32 build for reasons of part availability. I hope to be running my next machine for a bunch of years. I'd hate to find myself scavenging for parts down the road. Also I kind of doubt an AGB could be fitted to an old E32 machine.

Thanks for the recommendation for the Maier machines Pixman. Unfortunately there isn't a service centre for them in my area. This will be my first sliding headstock machine so I think I'll need a bunch of handholding to start off.

Thanks for your help guys!

[PixMan]

Where in Canada are you? I believe Elliot Matsuura may still be the Canadian importer and distributor for Maier, and their service/applications technician (Hans S., who is on this site) knows those Maiers pretty well. BTW, those machines use a 1.1Kw Fanuc αi motors on the live tools. They're the strongest motors I've ever seen on a sliding headstock machine other than a Tsugami TMU. Those are in a class by themselves even against their own Tsugami brethren.