Thoughts on the Jinn Fa JSL-32AB?

[sdsetupdude]

Im looking to get a swiss and really like the JSL-32AB. I'm a beginning machinist (3 years now in the biz) and am looking to start a company. it will make exclusively one part in mass production. I wont be running or programming it, ill leave that up to a more experienced machinist if needed, but i need to get this part figured out.

What has been your guys experience with this machine? im clueless with high-end machines, all i know is haas and fanuc. crap good or awesome? and what price range am i looking at for a new swiss with these capabilities? thanks in advance

[Swisstype]

I don't like to rip on competitive machines, but since this has the brand awareness of the "Shanghai Rabbit" I will fire away.
It sounds as if you are new to this, per your admission. To really get the mist from your dollar, you need to really look at the big names: Citizen, Star and Tsugami. The reason? they will have the best technology, teh fastest cycle times, best accessories. The next is also the most important: the service and support offered by these builders will seriously dwarf anything these bottom tier swiss-wannabes can purport. All three build a low-cost model taht will be warrantied well and serviced by their support teams.
So many CNC Importers are trying to get into the "Swiss Turn" game and having a product to sell in order to make money. They pick up things like Jinn Fa which probably has less than 5 units ever sold in the USA. What about parts, service and anybody that remotely speaks english to help you when you need it. Trust me, stick to teh big three and make your decision based on how the support of teh dealer stacks up and works best with you and you won't go wrong.

[sdsetupdude]

thank you exactly what info i was looking for. next question... someone told me that it is hard to machine a part in a swiss under 40 seconds. the part im looking to make has only 5 holes drilled and tapped, no profiling or lathe work. i just want indexing capabilities and auto-bar feeding. can this be done in under 15 seconds if the part is incredibly simple or is there some loading restrictions?

[DDM]

If you could tell us more about the part I might be able offer some advise. Are the tapped holes on the X or Z axis, what size tapped holes and how big is the part. We have some shafts that we have 30 sec cycle times on a star SV-32 but that is just turning and no live tooling. When you add live tooling time goes up.

Carl

[sdsetupdude]

here is a jpg of my part. it is about .215" tall and will range in length from 2.5" to 4.5". taped holes along the shaft are usually 2=56 and the hole at the end is a 4-40. but i would like to do the end hole in a sub-spindle after it has been cut off from the main spindle. thanks

[extanker59]

Wow. I really don't see that part being done in 15 seconds. I've seen plenty of parts done in 15 or so seconds but they were all turned only and/or the one hole was on the sub spindle. It's those tapped holes that are going to kill your time.

[DDM]

Yeah I agree on that is going to take more than 15 sec unless you spend a lot of money on something that works more than one tool on the same side. I think I saw on another post that you plan on using an extrusion for the profile. This isn't going to be a standard profile so plan on expensive collets/guide bushings not to mention that an automatic loading bar feeder might have problems with that particular profile. I run just round stock so that is just my personal take.

Carl

[sdsetupdude]

well i have the collets and bar feeder suppliers lined up for the extrusion if i can iron out the swiss thing. what kind of time frame am i look at then? i just saw how fast the swiss machines can run and figured i might have found a faster way to make it. right now there are 7 steps to make this. i want to reduce it to one or two and the swiss holds the answer if i can make it fast enough. maybe if i left the tapping for the second process? seems like that is the hold up... correct?

[DDM]

I would guess that the part may take a little less than a minute but I can't say for sure. Tapping the part after it is out is going to be a pain in the ass. It's better to have the machine do everything for you so you don't have to do it later. If it were me I wouldn't worry about the cycle time unless you have a daily quota to meet. The nice thing about the swiss is that you don't have to babysit them that much so if you need more time just let it run all night.

Carl

[npkaye]

Sir Swisstype.
Our company imports, services, turnkeys and sells Jinn-Fa Swiss machines in the USA. For your information, Jinn-Fa is one of the largest Swiss machine type builders worldwide. Star reportedly approached them to build machines for them and Jinn-Fa politely said they would not do so for the Western Market. They would build those machines in their new mainland China plant for sales under private label in China market.

As for the advice you gave to sdsetupdude, I find such aggressive bashing of a product you obviously know nothing about is either posted by a machine tool sales employee who has obvious motives, or are just an opinionated jerk who gets off on trying to post "I know it all, been there, done that" advice.

There are many Jinn-Fa Swiss sold in the US. We just shipped another machine from the IMTS show to Arizona and had 5 parts turn keyed and run off in a week on the customer’s floor, including machine installation. Our application engineer even wrote them Macro's for their most popular medical part families. The Chief Procurement Manager for the US Navy stopped by Jinn-Fa’s IMTS to tell us how impressed he was seeing a Jinn-Fa 32 AB producing double pitch Acme threaded valve stems out of Monel at one of the largest suppliers of valves to the Navy. The Jinn-Fa cut the same stems as the Tsugami in half the time. (We also have two Jinn-Fa machines producing military firearm components for the Army)
More HP and more rigidity= Better Parts.

Go to our website and look at the new Jinn-Fa 42 ABY with 20HP main and 10 HP sub and 37 tools with 19 live for technology. And by the way, the machine alone weighs over 16,500 lbs. From producing “stints” to “submarine valves” , Jinn-Fa is a quality machine and does it faster than a “Taiwanese Rabbit” trying to get away from being dinner in somewhere in Taiwan.

Our warranty is two year 24/7, machine and control. Our warranty claim requests are almost zero. A spare parts package ships with every machine for common wear and tear items such as belts, tool clamping bolts, wedges, fuses, filters and stuff commonly needed for maintenance. We stock the same parts. If we need a part from the factory, we have a resident part time employee living in Taichung who actually goes to the factory, picks up the part and ships it air, all while we are going to sleep here. We have never waited more than 48 hours (excluding holidays) for any replacement part. CyberCNC represents other Taiwanese machine lines as well. We do it right.

You say "What about parts, service and anybody that remotely speaks english to help you when you need it. Trust me, stick to teh big three and make your decision based on how the support of teh dealer stacks up and works best with you and you won't go wrong.

We speak English far better than you obviously give credit for in your post. Our Jinn-Fa International sales director speaks 6 different languages, including perfect English and attended a top USA College for 4 years and graduated with honors. If you took a geography course, you would realize that Shanghai is in Mainland China, and not Taiwan.
Speaking about technical service and support by machine tool dealers, my ownership in two companies have average machine tool sales in excess of 30 million US Dollars annually. Together we service and sell such lines as Toyoda, Fanuc Robo-Drill, Nakamura-Tome, Matsuura, Hwacheon, Kiwa, MuraTec, Youji VTLs, and other Special machines. Included in most new machine sales are fixtures, tooling, programs and runoff. For our companies, after the warranty service is a profit center, not a clueless telephone person with a poor attitude that never calls back. We don't sell junk.
CyberCNC also builds CNC turning centers based on the original Hitachi Seiki line of equipment. We have the base cast and machined in Korea, same as Hitachi Seiki did, and we ship the semi completed assembly to our plant where we add the controls and special options. We write ladders and have Fanuc certification for robot installations. We are hardly "are bottom tier swiss-wannabes" without talent. We have designed a number of special purpose tools, including power auxiliary spindles for odd angles for the Jinn-Fa machines.
I have 44 years in the machine tool business and am second generation. I have worked from the bottom up and spent the last twenty plus years dealing with and representing major machine tool builders. So I think I am somewhat qualified to respond to your advice of "stick to teh big three ". If you haven't noticed, these three (actually should be five) have switched dealers and are raising prices through the roof because of the devaluation of the US Dollar. All of Japanese builders of Swiss are offering new "economy machines" to their line with not Fanuc CNC and having these machines built where do you think? Remember when Warner & Swasey, Kearney & Trecker, and Giddings & Lewis were the BIG THREE? Bob Dillon warned, "The times they are a changing". 47% of ALL machine tools built shipped to CHINA last year. Russia, Turkey and Brazil are now in the top as machine tool purchasing countries. I lived through the change from American made machine tool builders calling Japanese builders "junk" and now the same is being said by the 'High Quality" Japanese builders who are suffering horrible losses about Taiwan and China. Right now, mainland China is producing high quality machine tools, mostly for their domestic market. But they are putting up $150,000,000.00 machine tool factories one after another and will be a world dominate supplier in less than five years. Unlike here in the US, the local and federal governments are supporting the machine tool builders and engineering students from the top universities are enthusiastic to partner with the builders to come up with unique and technologically superior designs on new products. Except for Haas, US machine tool builders are basically extinct. The Germans and Japanese are very nervous right now and feeling the bite already.
I did see this thread was started a long time ago, but once found, I felt compelled to reply. One last remark: sdsetupdude. I’d be leary on taking advice from a person who puts down people who can’t speak good English when clearly, he can’t even spell in English. “Nuff said.

[sasquatch1972]

Nicolas, we are Jinn Fa dealers for Brazil and support you on that, well spoken.

Fabio Sant'Ana
Dynamach

[tea hole]

Somebody's feelings were obviously hurt there.
It is my experience that most large swiss shops are running Star, Tsugami and Citizen. I'm sure a poll could be set up here to see what is being run.
It is my opinion after spending some time digging into the Jinn Fa that they may be fine equipment, but I would still spring for one of the big three manufacturers. I wouldn't buy a Hyundai car (yes I realize they are a Korean company and make a lot of their stuff in the US). I wouldn't buy Chinese hand tools and I just wouldn't stake my livelyhood on a Jinn Fa.
I am sorry to disappoint you.
If you want me to change my opinion, keep providing good service and support for a decent product and maybe one day I will agree with you about the big 4 or 5, but if it was my money, I'd spend it on a Tsu, Star, or Cit.
Just my $.02