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Trial by fire
I Never programmed or ran a Swiss before-just three axis mills and two axis lathes.
The place I work at just bought a Hanwha Xd20H to do fittings out of 304ss.
Supposedly the programs were written, 500 samples were made by the Dealer
and approved by the customer. I was to get two weeks training and pretty much a turnkey deal.
We have to deliver 600 pcs of two parts by the 15th.
Turns out there is no turnkey, no programs, and about two days training due to installation problems.
The programs were written by me while getting coached by the trainer.
We tooled up as much as we could as the machine wasn't fully installed yet.
That ate up the first day of training.
After spending half the second day getting a print with all the missing dimensions and getting the first part, We were told we had the wrong print.
We had rev 1, they gave us rev 8.
The rest of my last day of training was spent rewriting the whole program.
Had to send the new print back as it too was incomplete.
Finally got a new program in and the trainer did what he could with it.
We still don't have a finished part and after a long 13 hr day, the trainer is off to another gig.
It's all in my lap now as of monday.
I like challenges and will do what I can but I think in this case the phrase "a little planning goes a long way" is an understatement.
I am either going love or hate Swissturns in a very short amount of time.
Prints with missing dimensions, due tomorrow, sounds like a typical day for me, lol. They aren't much different than a conventional lathe, main thing to remember when programming and making offsets is "Z" is backwards from a mill or lathe. To drill a .500 deep hole its Z.500 not Z-.500, I've never run your machine before but there pretty much all the same.
OK....this may sound strange to you, but these machines are nothing like a conventional lathe. Some of the programming is close to the same, but running the machine is a totally different animal. The first part is right though! Same s**t, different day!
Originally Posted by CitizenBrian
youve got a learning curve in front of you
i only ran a lathe for 6 months before we got our swiss
swiss has a much more specific order of operations, work from the inside out then front to back
make sure to be aware of how much of your guide bushing land your using
if you take off too much materal you lose all your support
i had a stud job in 304 and can say the stuff was a nightmare
10 mm studs from 10mm stock and it would kick burrs so bad it would sieze in the gb, switched to full profile inserts and many many passes
That's Ironic-The first thing the factory trainer said to me was "forget everything you know".
OK....this may sound strange to you, but these machines are nothing like a conventional lathe. Some of the programming is close to the same, but running the machine is a totally different animal.
As we wrote the first program he said always start with id work, then OD work progressing from front to back.
He made clear that fact that the bushing supports the work and thus the need to start from front to back.
The machine has high pressure coolant(up to 2000 psi) so I should be able to keep the chips under control. I've never used HP but I hear it's what I need for 304ss and deep holes.
The factory guy didn't quite get the strings from hanging on the part but said to use HP coolant on the turning op that is stringing up.
I'm sure I'll be using his number quite a bit in the near future.
While the conditions surrounding my intro to swissturns totally sucks,
I love learning and in the end it will "add to my database" of machining experience. That's a big plus IMHO.
It's just another machine with a few differences. Just like a conventional lathe is different from a mill, get the "omg its a swiss" attitude switched over to "its just a machine" and you'll find your time easier.
Everyone makes swiss machines seem like a horrible monster beast but I really just think of them as another machine with different nuances. Do not "forget everything you know", take what you know and apply it to this new machine. I don't get why people say things like this, its as if they think that they're part of some secret elite syndicate because they can run a swiss machine.
As far as the machine install and what not, you have to remember that the guys installing the machines aren't pros at the machines, theyre just guys from the dealer who set up various machines all the time, they don't know everything. We recently had a new machine put on the floor and the guys setting it up were trying to verse me on it, but I had already skimmed through the manuals and knew half the thinigs they were saying were false.. they're just people who make sure the machines turn on, they don't run them day in and day out, they don't know everything.
I've found most training to be as you described it, rushed and not as informative and "hold your hand the whole way" as you'd like.
As for the part revision, since its a revision the part cannot be TOO drastically different, so work with the program you already have. Also remember that just because the program came from a hanwah guy, that it may not be the best program structure anyway, but you'll have to figure this out as time moves on.
Remember the basics about your guide bushing land so you don't retract too far, make sure its snug enough that you can hold your roundness to at least a half thou. There is a lot of variation on the subject of how "tight" your guide should be, really i've found that you have to figure it out for yourself. One guys "nice and loose" may be another guys "snug" etc.
High pressure coolant is another learning curve all in itself, and I would love to say I figured it out after one job, but not so much. Remember though that the high pressure coolant is supposed to be aimed right at the top of the insert by the cutting edges to form a "hydraulic wedge" of oil between the insert and the chip flowing over it. What this does is keeps the chip off the insert as much as possible increasing insert life, and at the same time, helps to curl (and break) the chip. 304 is a burr and chip nightmare though, so you may find it hard to get the chip breaking. A lot of the time chip wrap can be alleviated by taking a different approach (reverse turning to guide the chip off the part etc). I've found it to be extremely hard to get a perfectly burr free part out of 304, even if you're chamfering edges youll often kick a burr one way or another. Don't get crazy with the high pressure and use it as a be all end all situation, most of the time you can alleviate most chip issues by changing your methodology. High pressure is a tool, its not a necessity, though in this day and age a lot of tooling and certain things like super deep drilling do rely on it. Just as yourself, "how did they make this part before high pressure"? the answer may not be obvious, but it can be done.
One thing too, make sure that when you're doing a turning operation that you chamfer the edge of the OD of the bar stock, so that when you retract into the guide bushing you're not shearing off a burr on the OD of the part with the guide bushing. 304 will almost always push a burr in this manner, and it is a good common practice to follow this for all scenarios. Say you've got a .5" round bar and you're turning to .375 along a length 1" long, I would do something like the following:
Just to break the top edge on the OD of the material. If you dont and you retract youll here a "bunk" type sound.
Post up any specific problems you are having and I/we will try to guide you as best we can. None of us know everything, its always a learning experience each day, but we can certainly help out! (without giving away too many secrets )
Last edited by SirDenisNayland; 02-04-2012 at 12:20 PM.
in the 4 years ive run my swiss ive only had one part that i reaaly wish i had hp coolant, turning a dog bone shaft from .625 to .300 in one cut 11 inches long in 300m steel
the rest of the time we just run very sharp inserts with a very good chip breaker
one thing i hear alot "with a swiss you have to do your turing in one shot"
bull, 70% of parts put on nowadays dont have features that break the 3:1 rule and you can get away with a rough and finish pass. or break your long sections into segments and do a blend as
watch your inserts many of the grades from a conventional are too dull to work efectively on a swiss, not only from the power stand point but also the fact that we run features that most people would think were impossibly small.
my go to inserts lately are the JS series from tungaloy, they turn "*****in finishes"(customers words) control chips well, and dont break the bank
i agree with denis, dont forget every thing you know but what you learn running a swiss will carry over to your other lathes
Worked 10 hrs on the part and have yet to get a good one.
The Hanwha trainer won't come back and the service guys are about to bail on me.
The part is a double end hose barb major dia .428 minor dia .368.
The owner bought 1/2 stock instead of 7/16.
I am stringing up and pushing the part back.
Near the end of the day I let the service guy drive and he snapped the cutoff
jogging the head the wrong way.
Day one= scrap parts, broken tooling, and pissed off owner and service reps.
This is quickly turning into a high pressure nightmare.
Broken tools and scrap parts... sounds about right for the first day.
Just try to learn from every broken tool.
Hang in there!
Sounds like you got quite the bum deal. Installation issues, training issues, tight time constraints, and to add insult to injury, the first job you have to run in the machine is 304SS. Ouch.
I don't think I can add too much more to the discussion, without more info on what the problems you are encountering are, than what has already been discussed above. I am with SirDenisNayland... NEVER forget what you have learned. You can always use that to your advantage.
Step back and look at the part. How would you have made it on the lathe you were running prior to getting the swiss? Chances are, the only differences to making it will be the order of operations and depending on the size of the hole going through the part, maybe the feed/speed of the drill going in there.
If you are a bit more specific about the problems you are having, I am sure some of us folks can help you out to the best of our ability. Are you having problems with the actual machining of the part, i.e. feeds/speeds? Or are you having issues with tool changes, or pickup/cutoff/hand off to the sub?
ive busted more than a few blades that way, if you use an unsupported blade no big deal change the insert, otherwise it gets expensive, applitec 751 inserts work awsone in almost any mateial ive thrown them at
i would suggest an agressive roughing pass or two to peel the material off and break chip
the rough finish left behind shoould help control the chips on your finish pass
if your stock is pushing back you need to check your toggles and tool center height or the 304 is work hardening then the above shoul help
what tools are you using, cut data, etc
Service guy was working out some bugs in the machine installation-
The high pressure coolant setup,ejector pin sticking, etc.
All trainers are gone.
I tried what I know works having dealt with turning 304ss.
I added the chamfering thing on the stock to get rid of the burrs and stuck to Dave the Hamwha guy's theory of one pass turning.
4000 rpm with a feed of .0008 is where I am at. The stock is .5 dia and the DOC varies from .132 max to .072 min along 2.441 inch length with several plunge cuts and tapers.
The machine has 7 different M codes to select HP coolant for different tool positions.
The inserts they selected for forward and back turning are VBMT3305.
I'm stuck with them for now.
Rigged up the HP coolant lines(brake tubing) to fwd and back turning tools and viola- no strings and decent finish.
The part also has a .236 thru hole. Doing most of the hole on main side with HP coolant and carbide oil hole drill and the rest on the sub side.
I still have some geometry tweaks to get it perfect as I am using "Casio cam"- A calculator, pen, and lots of paper but at least I am finally getting somewhere.
Don't know about tool life yet but changing inserts is sure gonna suck.
I doubt I can make their unrealistic deadline but this "fancy new whittlin iron"
is starting to grow on me just a little bit.
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