Does a Citizen control simulator exist? or anyone have training or school guides?

[MCImes]

I have programmed and run many different brands of Fanuc controlled Swiss machines. The only Citizen experience I have is from school and I am forgetting that slowly. Since they're such a large player in the Swiss world I feel like Im missing half of the machine knowledge Id like to have. Im curious, does anybody know if there is a Citizen/Mitsubishi control simulation program for a computer? If so who do I talk to to get it? a rep? School or training literature is also ideal.

If one does not exist has anyone made a menu diagram for self reference? or anything else like that? I have factory manuals for both L and M series but those are clearly not written by a native english speaker and are not a good study guide to really understand the control. Im looking for anything better than that.

Thanks!

[SirDenisNayland]

Not to my knowledge, and in fact it would be quite tedious to create if you ask me, because while the operation of their machines are similar, they are all completely different. The language in the later manuals is better, but I cannot understand the L20 manual really at all and have had to piece together unknown functions by trial and error. If you call citizen up they have notes pertaining to each machine and the little programming nuances they've discovered, things that arent documented etc. For the record, I attended a training course at Citizen New Jersey and it was little more than a swiss principles course, we didn't even get to use the machine we were being trained on, they didnt even have one on the floor. They had a A32 with a similar fanuc control, but Ive since learned that while very similar on the surface, theyre completely different.

I have experience in the L series, the A and the K, and they are all completely different from each other in terms of M and even some G codes (aside from the standard interpolation G codes), as well as programming operation. Little example, my K16 won't take center settings in the tool setting pages, I *must* use a G50U shift to set tool centers (I input a .22" center distance and the shift really becomes more like 4 inches.. consequently even in the machine setting pages for setting the hard machine center values, the parameters essentially, the center distance is ****ed up. Oddly enough I figured out that the working number is to divide your inch value by 25.4 and then 25.4 again.. effevtively the number you want, x/25.4^2, makes no sense, I know, but its what works.. it was a used machine and we've had issues galore with it and I think someone got inside and ****ed with the ladder among other things, but who knows)

Citizens also run as either a mitsubishi control or a fanuc control with citizens front end, meaning even though you have fanuc experience, citizens fanuc really is not the same, save for the 'background'.

One thing that is constant between every machine, at least the newer generation, and which is different from Stars (the only other swiss machine I have experience with) are the G600 series 'mode' codes, which are at times a blessing and other times useless if you ask me. Another thing is their tool setting pages, which I actually quite prefer to the star where you have different ways to set each 'bank' of tools (gang, cross tools, front working tools etc) and must MDI everything. (T100 G0X[matl.dia] etc)

Another major difference between the citizen and the stars is that there are no separate programs from Head1,2 or 3. They are all contained within a single file, distinguished by $1 $2 and $3 signs. This is a blessing, and at the same time a curse for a few reasons
pros:
-one file, easy to organize
-you have the option of "syncing" your display, that is it will align all the wait codes between heads so you can see how the flow of the program will work much easier, and it makes programming at the machine easier

cons:
being one file, you cannot execute head1 independantly of head2 and vice versa, there is a "last part program" which is tedious at best and allows you to execute head2 independantly of head1, but I never utilize it because you essentially end up with the head2 program in there twice, or some funky GOTO macro statements which can confuse a lot of operators Ive noticed. Okay if you're the only one ever using them but not so much for the 'layman'

I have things I love and hate about both styles of machines, but the biggest thing with citizens is that while some knowledge is transferable between their different machines, they all have their own little undocumented nuances and ticks which you can only learn from actual experience on the machines. I would end up blowing my brains out if I were tasked with creating a simulator that encompassed the entire citizen range, and even if I did my best it would likely end up just as a basic swiss machine simulator to give you an idea of how they work in principle.

Even the 'training' literature I received when I was down at citizen was little more than a basic swiss principles reference, the only benefit was that they included a list of the M and G codes and some undocumented things they had noticed over the years pertaining to that machine. However, there were some things in the class that even the teacher did not know and could not answer, and there was a lot of uncertainty over certian things like 'parking' the sub spindle front working tools when using extra long tools. The teacher wasnt sure if you would be able to do that, and even mentioned that it would index to the 'normal' zero and then move back to your programmed position, effectively breaking your tools and then moving to the position you desired. Such is not the case I found, but it involved some trial and error and deciphering the engrish of the manual, as well as just figuring things out and being creative.

I know this isnt the answer you wanted, but citizens are picky finicky bastard machines. Very pretty and very well made, and its obvious why they made a name for themselves, but they can be a headache if you've come from something like star where the tool setting and programming and operation are all identical between machines..

Which is my favourite? I don't have one. I like all my machines and like I said, they all have their ups and downs.

[SwissBeast]

Originally Posted by SirDenisNayland cons: being one file, you cannot execute head1 independantly of head2 and vice versa, there is a "last part program" which is tedious at best and allows you to execute head2 independantly of head1, but I never utilize it because you essentially end up with the head2 program in there twice, or some funky GOTO macro statements which can confuse a lot of operators Ive noticed. Okay if you're the only one ever using them but not so much for the 'layman'

Sorry I know this is off subject, but Sir Dennis which series of machine are you speaking of with the "last part program"? I program and set up Citizens and I was wondering if this would work on any of the machines I work with. We have a M3 series M20 with Y-axis on turret, M16, and 2 brand new L20X's which I haven't gotten to play with yet. I figured it may work on the M320? And if so where can i find the documentation or where is it on the controller?

[SirDenisNayland]

Originally Posted by SwissBeast Sorry I know this is off subject, but Sir Dennis which series of machine are you speaking of with the "last part program"? I program and set up Citizens and I was wondering if this would work on any of the machines I work with. We have a M3 series M20 with Y-axis on turret, M16, and 2 brand new L20X's which I haven't gotten to play with yet. I figured it may work on the M320? And if so where can i find the documentation or where is it on the controller?

Every citizen has this feature as far as I know, at least every single one I have ever worked on. Essentially the last part program is placed between the G999 and N999 blocks, and is executed when the 'last part' button is selected on mitsubishi controls in the auto page (you may have to press menu select a few times), or you turn it on from the OPR menu in the offset page on fanuc based models.

Basically what you do is copy the entire $2 program between these blocks, or you set a goto with a conditional return so that the program jumps to the main body and then returns to the space between the G999 and N999 blocks.

I personally never use it, nor do I ever run head2 alone on my star machines to get just one last part out. I consider it a scrapped part considering there is always likely going to be some scrap so its a non issue for me, but if you're machining gold or something of the likes I can see why you would want to get every last bit out of your material. Occasionally I will utilize the fact that the Star can run head2 without any fiddling during setup, and quite personally I love the fact that its a real fanuc control and I can start the program from wherever I please, making certain setups a lot easier/more efficient.

Any and all of the citizen books should have documentation for this under the general program layout portions, however I do not have experience with M series machines and the three head structure so I cannot say for certain. I know for a fact your L20Xs have this feature though and you're a lucky man for having the latest generation L20! The L20 is by far my favourite and most capable machine of all the two stream machines, of any brand ive worked with.

Cheers

[gizmo_454]

Our older '93 E2-32, three path machine has the "last part" feature. I use it in every program. It is nice for setup purposes since you only have to make one part to see any changes or adjustments you just made. Normally, I just copy the $3 main portion of the program to the G999 section. I know it takes more space, but most of our programs are relatively small.

Good luck!

Mike

[cpaulk1]

The "last part" feature of the Citizens is a nice feature. I work with Nexturn 20e and 32 machines and, although they are great machines, they do not sport such a feature.