Need Help

[edrodriguez]

Need help setting turning tools on tsugami swiss lathe. any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Ed

[lukehonor]

Please be more specific. I program/set up Tsugami 20MM's and 32MM's. The way I touch off front turning tools is as follows:

1. ZERO YOUR GEOMETRY AND WEAR OFFSETS FOR TOOLS GOING TO BE TOUCHED OFF
2. BRING YOUR STOCK OUT PAST YOUR TOOL POINT
3. GO TO MDI AND GET SPINDLE GOING AROUND 750 RPM'S IN DIRECTION NEEDED WHERE TOOL CAN CUT
4. GO TO HANDLE AND HANDLE SLOWLY IN "X" UNTIL YOU JUST TOUCH BARSTOCK
5. GO TO GEOMETRY OFFSET AND TYPE IN BAR STOCK DIAMETER AND HIT SOFTKEY MEASURE

THAT WILL TOUCH OFF "X". ON MY MACHINES, I HAVE ALL MY TOOLING SET TO "Z" 0 SO I DON'T EVER HAVE TO TOUCH THEM OFF ON "Z". IF YOU'RE USING A LEFT HAD CUT OFF YOU NEED TO ADD THE DIFFERENCE OF TOOL SHANK MINUS THE WIDTH OF THE CUTOFF AND ADD THAT TO GEOMETRY FOR THAT TOOL #. TURNING ON YOUR SUB SPINDLE SIDE IS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME EXCEPT YOU'LL NEED TO TOUCH OFF THE "Z". GET A PART IN YOUR SUB SPINDLE AFTER YOU PICK OFF AND:

1. MDI T3131 (EXAMPLE), GO X0. THEN YOU'LL WANT TO GET YOUR SPINDLE GOING IN MDI AND HANDLE YOUR PART UP THE TOOL TO BE TOUCHED OFF. WHEN IT TOUCHES SURFACE, GEOMETRY OFFSET, Z0., MEASURE. DIAMETER IS THE SAME AS THE FRONT SIDE.

GOOD LUCK!

Screw Machine Shop - Screw Machine Parts and CNC Machining - Progressive Turnings -

[PixMan]

Lukehonor:

If you have NO tools in the gang how on earth do you use that method for initial setting? Makes no sense to me as the tools in the gang could be all over the map on height from stock. It's important that they all be as close to the same setting as possible to allow possibly limiting the retract position between tool changes (making them faster.)

The way I put new tools in:

1. Clear geometry and wear offset
2. MDI mode, send X to stock diameter with SPINDLE OFF
3. Slide tool into gang position, rest on stock O.D., lightly tighten the wedge screws.
4. MDI or JOG tool off of stock, finish tightening wedge screws.

Done. Make part, check diameters, should be within .001" (.0254mm),

[danrudolph]

Pixman,

Do you find that a Tsugami is more difficult to operate than a Citizen? Tool setting on a Citizen seems more intuitive than the steps for a Tsugami.

Would this sway your opinion to a Citizen over a Tsugami? We are looking at all makes (Tsugami, Star and Maier) before we would buy our next machine.

I like the 3 path models from Tsugami and Star ECAS, but programming the Star has some bad comments in other threads...

[PixMan]

Citizen does have much better tool-setting functions than any other maker. Their "$1, $2" system of programs is a little more confusing that just having 2 or 3 separate programs and easy-to-coordinate wait codes.

The ECAS machines with the hybrid Siemens/Yaskawa controls is the worst as far as programming goes, IMO.

I can no longer tell anyone to consider a Maier. As much as I like Michael, I am DONE trying to help them after being threatened with legal action. I know of one shop that bought one, and had trouble. They have now just taken delivery of a new Tsugami, so we'll see what they think of the two side-by-side.

While Tsugami's have good solid, extra-heavy Meehanite castings, robust build quality and compactness, the Tsugami has one thing going for it that beats them all: Their programming system that comes free with the machine. It's incredibly good!

I had been thrown at a new Tsgami BW-12, a very small, fast 3-channel machine. While I had some experience in programming 3-channel screw machines (Citizen M20, Maier ML-D types), I hadn't programmed a Tsugami of the same type. They threw me the disk with their software. No instructions, nothing.

I loaded the CD into my PC, started playing with it. Four hours later I was proving out a nearly flawless 3-channel program to run the part. Absolutely no issues with wait codes or geometry. No $10K P.O. to Partmaker, no post processor config, no issues at all.

[chet470]

Pixman is absolutely correct for setting of tools in X axis!!! The process is fundementally the same for the 3 you mentioned. Citizen has taken it a step further and added a internal macro for tool setting. This is something that could easily be done for Star & Tsugami if you choose to do so.

I certainly wouldn't use this a basis for a purchase. You are also paying for these "user friendly" options in a Citizen which some feel aren't really necessary.

Good luck

[lukehonor]

Originally Posted by danrudolph Pixman, Do you find that a Tsugami is more difficult to operate than a Citizen? Tool setting on a Citizen seems more intuitive than the steps for a Tsugami. Would this sway your opinion to a Citizen over a Tsugami? We are looking at all makes (Tsugami, Star and Maier) before we would buy our next machine. I like the 3 path models from Tsugami and Star ECAS, but programming the Star has some bad comments in other threads...

Coming from someone who has operated, programmed and set up both Citizen and Tsugami, Tsugami is a better machin and more user friendly for anyone familiar with G code and any Fanuc brain. I have been on them for years now and there's no doubt I would take Tsugami over Citizen anyday. Citizen makes a good machine, but their control is soooo different from a standard G code fanuc on a Mori, Miyano, Deawoo etc.

There are too many differences to name right now. I like the Citizen but I love working with the Tsugami. I'm sure there are people on here that will argue and prefer the Tsugami, but my opinion: you'll be happy if you buy a Tsugami. We tried to sell our 20MM citizen after we got a 20MM tsugami, but we would have lost too much $$. Nobody really wanted the thing!

Good Luck!

Screw Machine Shop - Screw Machine Parts and CNC Machining - Progressive Turnings -

[danrudolph]

Thanks for the info. I can understand doing tool setting in MDI and that's not a big deal to me, but if someone other than me was setting tools, I might be concerned. We have a long Citizen history.

I have four jobs quoted that will benefit from symmetric live tooling so that is the one thing I am looking. Citizen does not have a two gang machine. Also, the idea of the Tsugami software is intriguing!

[PixMan]

So what bar size are you considering, and exactly what do you mean by "symmetric live tooling"? Am I correct in thinking you mean being able to mill two side at the same time or drill holes from opposite sides of the O.D. at the same time?

There's a member here who is a "world class" applications engineer for REM Sales, the US Tsugami importer/distributor owned jointly by Robt. E. Morris Group and Tsugami. He could tell you about the models and the "Abile" software. It's truly amazing.

This is the 3-channel machine I had setup for dental implants in 6Al-4V titanium. On the BW-12. I had to thread mill an internal M1.4 x 0.3 thread, and the tool lasted for about 400 parts. I'll have to get a photo of the cut-away I did.

http://www.remsales.com/home/swiss_automatics/bw12.html

Watch the video and you'll see it can do the simultaneous milling or drilling I think you're concerned about. There's a BW-12 and a BW-20. In a two-channel machine, the S-205 probably can do what you need in a much simpler and cheaper machine. If you download the PDF of the brochure, there's a page describing the "BW Abile" or BE Abile" software. Nicer integration with the machines than Partmaker, and I've been there for training.

[danrudolph]

Yes, all the parts have milled features 180º apart. I would probably stay in the 20mm range. The one part specifically has about 3 minutes of ball milling on a 5 minute cycle. If I could cut that to half, I'd be in the 3.5 minute range for the whole part.

I've been drooling over the BW12 video for a few months now. But, I'll need to weight price vs. cycle vs. shop consistency with another Citizen A20.

Do you know if REM Sales have several models available to look at in a showroom?

[cogsman1]

Citizen does offer software that will assist you in the programming. Here is a link to a good description of how it works.

Citizen Machinery UK - Sliding Head Lathes and Citizen Lathes

This will build your program, insert cutting code that needs editing for your part, and has many checks for typos etc..
I like it for a very quick program and much more in help files.
I have run Fanucs forever but have to say, IMO, once you learn the Mitsubishi type program you will love how easy it makes it for you. MOST of the "G CODE" for cutting is the same as the Fanuc but each machine builder has special codes for their machine. Citizen 3 digit G-codes are "Macros" that set up the coordinate systems for how YOU choose to work. You could write it all out yourself as you would in a Fanuc but WHY? They are also wait codes.... DOS can do what Windows does but who would go through that now when you don't have to?

[Doctor Tsugami]

The two method of setting tools talked about in the thread are valid ,each has a purpose, the method in which you move the tool slide to dia. before installing the tool is the most accepted method and easy to use but some tooling is not made for swiss applications and you must use the "measure function" to get the best results. as or which machine is better I am partial to Tsugami as noted in my name. Ive been doing Tsugami work for over twenty yrs, and haven't found to many customers that don't like the machine after they have had them for a while. The tsugami machine can run water soluable and you won't violate your warrenty,so if your company likes water soluable they are the way to go