Fanuc vs Siemens 840D

[DaveJ-FTM]

Does anyone have any input on the Siemens 840D control for multi axis Swiss Lathes?. Specifically STAR model ECAS20. My concern is how "user friendly" is this control compared to the FANUC'S and YASNAC'S that we currently use on our STARS that we been running in our shop for 20 years. Several people locally have mentioned that the Siemens is more complicated than the FANUC & YASNAC controls and switching over is a slow painful PIA. I need to hear what some of you experienced pro's have to say about this control and even this machine.

Thanks for your help,

Dave

[kkiphart]

I would say if Fanuc and YASNAC are working good for you stick with them. Unless you need to do something that is specific to the siemens controler there really is no reason I can see to switch over. Like the old saying goes dont fix something that isnt broken.

Hope this helps I am not real familiar with siemens controllers but I dont see what they would be able to do that a Fanuc couldnt do.

[PixMan]

I have experience with Star CNC screw machines that use the Fanuc 16i & 18i controls, and also have used an ECAS20 with that hybrid Siemens control.

If ever there was a machine designer having a nightmare, that ECAS20 would be the engineer's output. Run, don't walk, away from that machine. The interface between the Siemens machine control and the Yaskawa drives absolutely SUCKS. When the machine has troubles (which in my experience, was a weekly occurrence), those two companies blame each other for the problem and it takes forever to get fixed. If that wasn't enough, trust me when I say that the programming also takes "sucks" to a new level.

Yes, it's a very capable machine because you can truly do some amazing work with it once you know it. However, if you're over 25 years old it may be a tough race between learning the machine well and reaching retirement.

Good luck.

[petriej]

I don't have experience with a Siemens on the ECAS per se, but I have used it on a Gildemeister Turn-Mill and it sucks. It was a Siemens 8400 powerline and doing any real programming besides turn and burn was not great. The codes are odd for example: turn on C-Axis was TRANSON; turn off C-Axis was TRAFOOF. There is little consistency about the control. We have since replaced that machine with another Gildemeister that has a Fanuc 32i. It is a much better controller.

[dookie2022]

I have used star machines using siemens and fanuc
The siemens is a windows based machine using windows and the early machines using NT windows did have issues but the systems using XP are a lot better and with the faster processors it is a lot better again.
There were two reasons why star used siemens is that at the time of developement Fanuc could not match the performance in axis control and or was capable to have a optimize function that cut cycle time. It is not till star Developed the SR20R-III using the Fanuc 300i system using XP windows that it could compete in the performance of the siemens controller.
Even the 300i has issues and restictions because it uses windows.
The siemens macro system is so much more powerful as it has every function but in the fanuc system you have to purchase all the options available to be on the same par.
I do admint it is differant to fanuc but people in europe do not have a issue as they are famlimar to this type of controller.
Other reason was to force fanuc to be more cost effective in pricing.
Now Star has even dropped the 300i series in there new model (ST-38) available later in the year using a differant Fanuc controller which is more stable performs better than the siemens so it has taken Fanuc several years later (aprox 5+) to have a product better than the siemens but will cost more and every option you will have to pay for.
As Fanuc control 70% of the world market in controllers the odds are that every body has come across one in there working enviroment.
I here the same things about differant contollers such as the Mazatrol or the Okuma system.
If you are a ISO programer then Fanuc suits but if you are into Macros then siemens is the one

[cncserveng]

Dookie is absolutely correct, the advantages of the Siemens control to the machine builder is immense relative to Fanuc for example. Fanuc has always been a bullet proof off the the shelf control that can work almost straight out of the box. But it is very limited in terms of advanced features and functions the builder might need. That is where the 840D scores highly the price paid is a more complex control for the end user, some find it almost baffling. If you need a high end multi axis machine go for Siemens, if not, choose one of the others.

[DUANE EVANS]

As a Star user with 2 ECAS 20's and SR-20 Type III, other STars all Fanuc, 3 Citizen,
1-Fanuc, 2 Mitsubishi, it is true that the Yasnac/Siemens is more challenging to program
but this is a 3 channel machine with 8 axis in the front channel 1 & 3 and 3 axis in the back and 10 standard live tool positions, one of the most capable 20 mm Swiss out there
and accurate / fast, pinch tool capable, it should be harder it blows away the other machines we have on many jobs, it is no wonder why master like the Swiss & Germans love these machine, time to grow and stretch ourselveds I guess.

I do love the comfort of the Fanucs, but I cut my teeth on them log ago.

drevans

any questions call 408-858-6494 for consult or programs

[jcruthers]

In response to many of the comments, the posts are correct that the Star ECAS machines are a hybrid Siemens/Yaskawa control. This is based on the SINUMERIK 840Di control interfaced to Yaskawa drives and motors. The operator interface running on the 840Di is also custom build by Star. Being a hybrid, it's not completely using all the functionality of a complete SINUMERIK control. For Swiss machines, Hanwha offers a complete SINUMERIK 840D sl based Swiss machine that is very nice as well.

Regarding the Gildemeister machines, which do use a complete SINUMERIK 840D or 810D control (depending on the age), this is using the Siemens controls, drives and motors. However like with the Star machines, Gildemeister uses a modified version of the SINUMERIK HMI in many cases.

Why does Siemens do this? It provides the OEM the capability of tailoring the control to the specific needs of the machine application. Some of this customization is done better by some than others but does make one SINUMERIK different that others from time to time.

[SirDenisNayland]

Interesting thread and I appreciate all the comments. I often find myself doing "unconventional" things with my machines and more times than not I've been limited by the controller and not able to do certain things I've imagined.

This is the main reason the citizen L20 with the Mitsubishi control is my favourite in my shop, I can do a lot of things that the fanucs can't do, even with unlocked options, because the machines weren't designed with such options ever being in mind. Things like execute an M code when the machine gets to a certain position, one example is turning the air blow on only right at the point a drill breaks through.One flip through a 32i manual yields tons of options that I could dream of utilizing, yet they can't be used even if unlocked so I've learned. Especially not with the citizen/fanuc hybrids which I've found incredibly limited in respect to advanced programming.

One thing I have always dreamed of being able to do is on the fly block alteration via a macro running in the background.. does anyone know if such a thing is possible with Siemens controls? Hard to describe without giving up pieces of my imagination, but imagine how cutter comp works; you input a direct path and the machine modifes the actual machine position from the programmed position, on the fly, by certain background calculations based on an input radius and movement direction.

Personally I've worked with a lot of people who claim this sucks and that sucks and more times than not it boils down to not knowing what they're doing. To bring up cutter comp again, I've heard so much **** about it jumping the tool around, this and that, and it just boils down to not knowing how to properly utilize the function,

This thread only encourages me to get a Siemens based machine, rather than discourage me, because I love mastering things people can't seem to comprehend. And if they do allow such 'background' program path alteration on the fly then you can bet I am going to push for a Siemens control over any other on the next machine we put on the floor..

Thanks again

[jcruthers]

I couldn't agree with you more when you say "a lot of people who claim this sucks and that sucks and more times than not it boils down to not knowing what they're doing".

Fear of something new and learning how to do it holds too many people back. Without continuous progress, we will not achieve success.

[PixMan]

Well, you are correct that ignorance breeds contempt when it comes to controls, but I'm no dummy. Impatient yes, stupid no.

When I was thrown at the ECAS20 I had plenty of Fanuc experience and training, but for the Siemens control only books and a couple of programs of questionable quality. And no time to learn...just gimme those parts I need to ship them tomorrow. I did the best I could, but the first application for programming required pinch turning, synchronous milling, multiple grips, and complex tool radius comps owing to driving a turn-groove tool.

Am I making excuses for being intimidated by the control? Perhaps. Still I do not turn my back on a challenge and walk away. My learning curve was severely hampered by machine/control failures, and I go back to my original statement of the poor interface and finger-pointing between the Siemens control and Yaskwawa drives as being an impediment to productivity. If neither Siemens, Yaskawa or Star could be bothered to get the thing working reliably, why did they put it out in the field? The service guy remarked that he had a lot of those calls to handle. Having so many service calls that I got to know the service technicians' wife and kids' names was just a little too friendly.

[SirDenisNayland]

Yeah I've spoken around with some people and found a large part of the "hatred" is due to service problems, like you said one or the other pointing the finger at each other and the fact that service and parts are very limited.

I've already dealt with enough issues having citizen point the finger at fanuc and fanuc pointing at citizen lol.

I'll agree that at machine groove tool comp can be a pain in the ass.. I tend to cam a tool path in those cases, makes life a whole lot easier. I am personally of the belief anyway that a tool radius is not going to ever wear evenly, ie from .008 down to .0076, but rather end up as an oblong compound radius and require an insert change anyway. Though in your circumstance I bet you had to hold something stupid like a tenth on a rad and needed the comp to comp for inherent radius diffrences in the tool manufacturing process. Yikes.

Still, i am interested, but I've spent a good while looking around and all the machines described here now run on 31 and 32i controls heh.