New Low Cost Torch Height Control Beta Testers Needed

[Alan Bradford]

We are updating out AVC-2 Torch Height Control and are looking for 2 Beta sites for testing.
This is a low cost unit with 2 volt accuracy. It is not suitable for High Definition type of cutting. Our market is the conventional plasma systems. This includes Hypertherm PowerMax, Thermal Dynamics, and ESAB Inverter type machines, or older High Frequency machines.(Max-100, Pak10, etc.
The target price is less than $1,250.00 with out lifter, and $2,500 with a single speed AC lifter.
This unit is THC only and requires an existing lifter with 120 VAC Up/Down contorls.
We would like to find someone with non Hypertherm Plasma. (We already have a Hypertherm site). High Frequency start is OK.
Also the closer to the northeast section of the US the better.
We will provide the AVC-2 unit, a voltage divider, cables and instructions to connect.
You will provide feedback on the operation and at the end of the test period you can keep the AVC-2.

A unit with IHS (initial Height Sensing) is also in the works.

Contact me directly if you are interested
alan@plasmatechnologies.com

[Bigtoy302]

I do not think you are going to get much response here because we already have a awesome THC From Candcnc on this board for much less then your target price with many more options and way better resolution(1/4Volt).

Ryan

[Alan Bradford]

Hi Ryan,
Yes you are probably right.
This is not the right forum for this type of THC.
It is intended for the industrial market, where they cut 2-3 shifts a day.

The hobby class of machines that most use in this forum are not suited for the AVC.
Most already have a stepper Z axis and adding a precision THC is easily added to the PC and Stepper. Most of these machines are rolled sheet metal and use cheap unshielded drives. The big High Frequency plasma units would shut down the drives and Computers.

The industrial market has lots of machines that have multiple Oxy Fuel torches.
They are used for adding Plasma Torches to them. This type of THC is well suited for the 100-200 amp plasmas that cut 1/4 to 3/4 inch material all day long. Thats who I am looking for.

Thanks,

[Bigtoy302]

Originally Posted by Alan Bradford Hi Ryan, Yes you are probably right. This is not the right forum for this type of THC. It is intended for the industrial market, where they cut 2-3 shifts a day. The hobby class of machines that most use in this forum are not suited for the AVC. Most already have a stepper Z axis and adding a precision THC is easily added to the PC and Stepper. Most of these machines are rolled sheet metal and use cheap unshielded drives. The big High Frequency plasma units would shut down the drives and Computers. The industrial market has lots of machines that have multiple Oxy Fuel torches. They are used for adding Plasma Torches to them. This type of THC is well suited for the 100-200 amp plasmas that cut 1/4 to 3/4 inch material all day long. Thats who I am looking for. Thanks,

That's who I though you were targeting. This forum is mostly DIY'ers like myself. But even for industrial plasmas, don't you still want a better resolution on your arc volts?

[Torchhead]

All of the OEM's and commercial shops that are using the MP3000-DTHC with all kinds of machines (including old MAX100 ,TD StakPaks and ESAB 200Amp monsters) would be surprised you consider them to be hobby class . The only thing that would limit the number of shifts or total hours of use would be the mechanics of the table...not the control electronics. If you can make a PC based controller work with MACH and an integrated Digital Torch Height control on a MAX100 that has an HF start pulse that will pull fillings out of your teeth, then that might fit your criteria of "Industrial"? We have and other units almost as bad as the MAX100. Latest challenge was an ESAB 850 that spits out a 10,000 volt spark and eats the input to normal Sensor (pickup) cards for lunch. We came up with the REV14 card that has added noise and transient suppression and even an on-board spark gap.

Maybe the confusion comes from the fact I have a complete 4 axis electronics package (BladeRunnerDragon-Cut) with Motors, cables, power supply, Digital Torch Height Control in a compact enclosure for 200 dollars more that the target price THC only mentioned ($1250) without lifter. It (the BladerRunnerDC) IS aimed at the lighter duty Hobby and small shop market but it's the same interface electronics we have used on big commercial retrofits it just has lower cost motors, drives and power supply.

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[cowleym]

Yes I think Alan is correct about the differences between the industrial user and the 'light' user, clearly stepper motors and small servos will not stand up to the rigors of industrial use (insert sharp intake of breath from all the stepper lovers).
The industrial user would rather pay more money for heavy duty equipment, with down time costs of a $100 per hour it makes sense to design machines to be tough. Your average industrial user (in Europe) would not be happy with a machine driven by Mach3 type software, this is why Burny and Hypertherm sell so many units at a relatively high cost. We we all know that the electronics behind these systems is similar but it is the percieved longevity that they like.

Alan, $2,500 sounds pretty good for an avc, all the best with it, pity we have our own already.

Cheers

Mike

www.techservcnc.com

[Torchhead]

A large percentage of the cost of an "industrial" machine goes to cover the cost of all the overhead to support the sales and marketing and management so they can present a professional 'look" to a large company. In other words, you pay a lot to have a vendor tell you their product is industrial and support their infrastructure.

In large companies (been there done that) you make decisions based on the "don't get fired" rule. It goes like this: Look at all the choices. Reject the lowest cost as too risky. Pick the product that you can justify to your superiors, so if it does break or cause problems you can point and say "They are a $$$$$ company and MEGACORPXYZ uses their stuff , so I made the best choice (less risky)" Never buy from a company that you can't sue. If it costs more it MUST be better. If it costs a lot more then it's bound to be a safer choice.

Companies with more than one layer of management or with ownership not part of management, think differently and make decisions based not on what is the best solution for the money, but what can be justified if it turns out to be a bad decision (aka CYA). The marketing people that understand this make lots of money.

So you can walk into an "industrial" company and call a system with a drag tip, spring and a simple Z lifter an "ATHC" (Automatic Torch Height Control) and since the decision makers for buying are seldom the users, they all smile and nod. You can stress how down time is expensive (it is) and how your solution is built stronger, faster, better, etc. All that works until the economy goes sour then someone asks: "what if we bought 2 of the cheap machines and double the output and mitigate the down time"?....

So if MACH is "hobby" what about EMC [Linix/Unix]? Does the inclusion of a PC make it hobby? Are steppers hobby? Are the multimillion dollar semiconductor processing machines that use steppers hobby? Does the THC have to be non-integrated (stand-alone) with the toolpath software to make it industrial? Do hammers really need to cost $300.00?

In having the experience of being a part of the computer evolution (revolution) of the 70's & 80's, the telephony evolution from big mysterious proprietary switches of the 90's , and CNC changes over the past years, one observation I make reaches commonality. The changes happen in a non-linear fashion and staying off the technology train is safer as long as you can keep all your customers there with you. If they start climbing aboard, the pie gets smaller. At some point your competition hedges their bets and starts sending their people on the train.

I'm sure things may be different in the UK, but those that don't understand the dynamics of change in the US typically fail to survive. Even IBM had to learn that. Companies like Burroughs, Sperry-Univac, DEC and others incurred the pain of the market.

There is no reason to believe that the CNC market will not evolve much like the Computer market. First the "hobby" builders start making "personal" machines then a person(s) with vision has an idea that starts the technology lift-off (MS-DOS, 8080 Processor Chip) and then other dreamers start to see potential and start providing lower cost functionality (Compaq, Apple, Dell) THEN the exponential changes start to reach critical mass. Eventually a condition emerges (like a world wide recession) that forces new thinking in stoic management and things like the PC (considered a "toy" by most companies until they watched their competitors smoking them in productivity) become the standard.

It's not a better mousetrap that drives the market, it's your competitors buying and using a better mousetrap!

I apologize to those of you that aren't interested in history or the physiology of big business. I know it's boring. I'll refrain now that I have calmed down

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[cowleym]

Hi Tom

Nice reply, I agree with just about everything you say.
We are very small business and sell to other small business, generally our customers are engineers and can see through the smoke and mirrors tactics of the big manufacturers. We use our own in house pc based controller ( with inbuilt THC) and generally make good kit ( I know this because I am an engineer not a salesman, granted the we had a simple plate riding roller that was wrongly described as ATHC ).

Sorry but I was delibrately stirring the pot to see what reaction I would get (I am fairly safe being about 5000 miles away) It was good thanks.

Cheers

Mike

Hiding in England somewhere

[dnelso]

My hobby machine runs every day 8 hours with no problems. I have steppers and g540 gecko drive,hypertherm plasma,torch height control from candcnc. It may not have industrial price but works for me. My dogs also like it too
Dave

[jimcolt]

The line between hobby class or entry level machines over the past few years has gotton very thin....this is likely due to improvements in technology, as well as the use of PC's as controllers of these machines.

I think a true Industrial class machine is one that can be expected to produce high productivity 7 days a week for multiple shifts...without tinkering or downtime. Industrial machine operators are not expected to have to do more than load plate, align the part program to the plate, push the start button, monitor cut quality and unload the parts from the table, and repeat. Most industrial plasma machine controllers do not offer the ability to draw parts and do a lot of modification of programs at the machine...because this is looked op as non productive time......it is expected that nested programs are sent from the programming office to the machine...often wirelessly...and the operator just ensures that these parts get cut and stacked in a timely manner. On the high end industrial type machines...the PC based control sets everything...as many as 8 different gas settings (high definition plasma gas systems are rather complicated!), arc voltage, corner speed, hole speeds, THC enable disable, automatic lead in, lead outs, arc cut off time(to eliminate hole divots), amperage.....and many other things that normally a sharp operator or programmer would have to set to get the best performance and cut quality.

Hobby class...or probably a better term, entry level machines...typically use more operator interaction. The operator has to set parameters for everything at the machine....and typically has the ability and the need to tweak things on the part program (at the machine) to make the parts come out correctly.

That being said....many of the lower cost entry level machines have become more reliable, have improved in motion control and especially torch height control...and can actually cut a nest of parts with little attention from the operator! I recently drew a nest of relatively simple parts, loaded plate on my PlasmaCam (hobby cass, under $10k) machine with a Hypertherm Powermax45....and walked out of my shop and mowed my lawn. When I came back...the parts were all cut and and the machine was sitting there waiting for more orders. I would not have dreamed of doing this with my previous home shop machines.

So...probably the difference between hobby class machines....at least the ones that are equipped with all of the best, newest technology, and industrial machines is primarily based on the following:

1. Price
2. Size
3. Construction (can you drop a big sheet of 1" plate from 10" and expect the machine to still be the same height?)
4. Ease of operation (Industrial machines with the latest technology can be operated by a 9 year old today)
5. Cost of operation (Industrial machines with high end plasma and multiple torches cut parts at a fraction of the cost of small machines with air plasma)
6. Power requirements (most home shops do not have 3 phase power)

I'm sure there are other things that separate the machines....another would probably be along the lines of reliability and robustness......which can and would be argued by many manufacturers/suppliers.....I know of quite a few 20 year old large industrial machines that have been operating with little maintenance 3 shifts a day for all of those years.

Jim Colt

[cowleym]

Hi
Yes think your six points sum it up nicely.

Our customers want to load a plate, press the minimum number of buttons and set the machine cutting while they do something else. I am sure this can be done on the mach3 type of smaller machines, but the industrial ones are designed to do just that, load - select - cut, with automatic setup.

Just for the record I would class Daves machine as hobby/light industrial and the attached picture as industrial. Basic operation the same, both run from a standard pc.




Mike

[Torchhead]

Well, your right. A MACH based system with our DTHC interface requires a University Degree to operate. First find someone that can turn on the machine, start the PC and load the "magic control program". A PhD in Computer Science is recommended (or find a 9 year old).

Here is a list of the complex set of operator steps to cut a job:

1. Load File - G-code - [Filename from list] If you need help on this please contact the PHD that started the machine for you.
2. Click "CUT PROFILES" Button (NO, NO!! LEFT Button)
3. Select the type material you are cutting (this is where your degree cuts in) If it's not on the job ticket then just guess.
4. Look at the info at the top of CUT PROFILES and confirm you have the plasma turned on and set to the correct AMPS because if you don't and it starts to cut it will STOP and HONK at you!
5. Click "OK" (advanced users only)
6. Hit "RUN" button
7. Remember not to stare at the pretty white flame
8. NEVER walk off while it's cutting! The boss will see you and replace you with the village idiot.

All of this assumes some moron upstairs that generated the cut file used the right CAM POST and it's not for the CNC router across the shop.

You can mount a false knob or two on the front of the control so the operator THINKS they are doing something to earn their princely sum but that is optional.

(Sorry, I just couldn't resist)

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com
University Educated CNC Operator