SHEETCAM standard vs. TNG

[WSS]

Does anyone have any knowledge of these two versions and there differences? Any help would be appreciated!

The software package included with the Dynatorch machine is the standard version. I am wondering if the TNG version is worth the extra or if it is even needed.

Thanks, Tommy

[Torchhead]

So far, I haven't seen a compelling reason to upgrade to TNG for Plasma cutting unless you are interested in running on something besides Windows. There are some requests for features that, if included, might change that observation.

It's good to see that Dynatorch has decided to endorse SheetCAM. They never mentioned it; always pushing their software and WE-CIM as the solution. What's next, MACH3?

[WSS]

Torchhead,

Does that mean that TNG will run on a mac? I am always interested in an alternative to windows.

I should clarify that the software package was an "upgrade" to what they called deluxe (the premium includes we-cim). They recommended we-cim but offered SHEETCAM as well.

If TNG runs on a mac I'm there! The SHEETCAM website did not really specify platforms or features of each version, I assumed it was windows only. Les does respond to questions pretty quick, but you gotta know what to ask. I am pre-beginner, as I do not even have a table yet, so I appreciate your help immensely.

[magma-joe]

Torch Head, Its apparent you have not spent much time browsing the Dynatorch site. They endorsed sheet cam BEFORE they offered the Wecim software in August of 2006. Sheetcam has been offered on their website ever since. I wonder what happened to Practical CNC and DynaCNC?

[Torchhead]

Actually, I have not spent much time on their site since I disagreed with their thumb-in the-eye approach of calling steppers "old technology" and servo's as "modern technology" Basically called anyone that was stupid enough to buy a stepper based system a moron. That marketing hype has been toned down somewhat, but still plays on the fact that few table buyers know much about electronics so if someone says it that sounds "technical", it MUST be true.

Since all they sell is their "smart" servos (oxymoron) then they only have one pony to teach tricks to. The one thing they have done is give good support and that counts for a lot. They have remained professional and not engaged in written screaming matches with customers or negative posts. It might even balance out the fact that their control software and electronics are proprietary. Is that bad? Not as long as they support the product and you have the 800 bucks to replace one of their motor/drive units if it fails. If something happens to them, getting spare parts is going to be a challenge.

Practical CNC closed down and a "new" company called Precision AE opened at the same physical address. ...hummm. Their (PCNC's) demise was justly deserved based on the long trail of disgruntled customers. Their support teetered between non-existent and totally incompetent. At least they used pretty much off-the-shelf components so you can get low cost parts from multiple sources. We made a nice bit of change selling their customers a THC that really worked (theirs never did) and moving them over from the WINCNC system to MACH's open platform.

I know little to nothing about DYNACNC's fate except that one of their tech support guys has gone independent and continues to help owners out with support and upgrades. With the overhead they carried, a downturn in sales volume may have been the final nail.

This economy is going to take it's toll on a lot of the table manufacturers. The middle market space (tables from 10 to 30 thousand) has become increasingly crowded over the years and looks to get even worse because higher end mfg's are scurrying to move down. Used to, you had to call and set up an appointment to talk about a MultiCAM machine; now I get stories of small shops looking up and seeing a MultiCAM sales rep walk in the door and talk about their new "low cost tables" They and others have lived in the clouds so long they think a $50.000 table is low end!

I don't know if it was arrogance or altruism when DYNATORCH announced that they were "doing so well" in this economy that they were having a big sale to help out the less fortunate....a civic gift to the downtrodden.

Sorry, I missed the fact they have sold SheetCAM but since it's the only one with a price, I guess it's not considered part of their commercial persona. I just haven't heard too many of their customers asking questions on any of the boards or lists about SheetCAM. I do know there is a Dynatorch POST in SheetCAM but there are 50 more for all kinds of machines.

I probably know about as much about SheetCAM as anybody other than than Les. I worked with him to get the plasma features included early on and still recommend it to dozens of users a month. I have taught classes on using low cost but powerful tools like CorelDraw, DXFtool, SheetCAM and MACH to do decorative plasma cutting. I have used it since it was first produced in a commercial cutting business.

TOM Caudle
www.CandCNC.com

[Torchhead]

Originally Posted by WSS Torchhead, Does that mean that TNG will run on a mac? I am always interested in an alternative to windows. I should clarify that the software package was an "upgrade" to what they called deluxe (the premium includes we-cim). They recommended we-cim but offered SHEETCAM as well. If TNG runs on a mac I'm there! The SHEETCAM website did not really specify platforms or features of each version, I assumed it was windows only. Les does respond to questions pretty quick, but you gotta know what to ask. I am pre-beginner, as I do not even have a table yet, so I appreciate your help immensely.

Dream on Mac Junkie! It does open up hope for the Anti-Bill wing of the group that finds UNIX based systems more to their liking. Besides, if it ran on a MAC it would have to cost double the PC price

TOM C

[jimcolt]

Torchhead,

I like your comparisons of cutting machine companies and their products....however there is a difference in design and construction when you compare machines that are designed for 20 years of 3 shift a day industrial production....and those that are designed for light duty.

Your notion that MultiCam (and others) "have lived in the clouds so long" that they think a $50,000 machine is low end...needs clarification! If you look at the design and construction of (most) of the major cutting machine manufacturers (MG, Esab, Koike, Kiffer, Multicam....and a few others) you will see heavy duty construction...using superior components...and nothing but high end industrial electonics, drives, gearboxex and linear motion ways. Most of these systems were designed to last for 10 to 20 years under harsh industrial usage........and I see them in the field every day in John Deere plants, Shipyards, Steel Service Centers, Rail Car manufactures...etc etc. These types of applications for CNC plasma would eat up a lightweight construction, low cost machine on a weekly basis!

There are classifications for cutting machines that I use to segment the market:

1. Entry level / Hobby class machines. This segment is cost driven....it is imperative to have a full featured cnc / plasma machine that can be set up and operated by hobbyists or small welding/fab shops, or metal artists to produce parts in low volume with decent cut quality. This class of cnc machines really drives technology by constantly working to improve performance and ease of use....while staying below industrial machine price levels. Prices in this class need to be below $25,000 for a turnkey cutting machine, and usually the customer is on their own in regards to installation, operator training and service.

2. Light duty industrial machines. These machines are usually low tolerance machines that often use industrial hardened pc based cnc controllers and industry standard drives and motors....table size is typically 5 x 10 to 6 x 12. The biggest industry user is the HVAC (heating ventilating and air conditioning) industry for cutting galvanized ductwork. Machines are built to last under 2 or 3 shift operations....yet tolerance expectations are relatively loose (plus or minus .030" or worse).....often have single side drive, and sluggish acceleration. These types of machines typically sell for $25,000 to $50,000...installed and ready to operate in a customers plant.

3. Medium duty, medium tolerance industrial grade fabrication machines. This class of machines.....typically with 6' x 12 to 10' x 40' cutting bed sizes...is used in high production metal fab facilities that require high duty cycle, 3 shift a day operation, and the ability to handle heavy plate (up to 3" or more thickness) for both plasma and oxy fuel cutting. Extremely heavy construction.....industrial cnc controls and drives....and industrial liquid cooled, multi gas, 100% duty cycle plasma systems up to 400 Amps...incuding high definition class plasma. Tolerances are wide ranging on these machines depending on the plasma and the type and thickness of material being cut...typically small parts can be cut in the .020" to .030" tolerance range. These machines are factory installed with onsite training....and are complete with high end software with full nesting capacity, inventory control....and even online service (factory can access the PC Based control on the machine for remote troubleshooting)....prices range from $60,000 to well over $200,000 for these turnkey machines.

4. High Definition class precision machines.....this type of machine is of very rigid design, with lightweight moving components....and with inertia matched drives and low to zero backlash mechanical components (ballscrew, helical rack and pinion, low backlash planetary gearboxes, AC brushless servos) to allow for superior acceleration and velocity control with very limited following errors. These machines are usually in the 5'x10' to 8' x 40' cutting size range....and are equipped with the latest high definition class plasma systems....high duty cycle and high productivity is expected with tolerances in the .015" to .020" range with these system. Prices range from $100,000 to $180,000 for one of these factory installed, factory trained turnkey systems.

5. Large, unlimited industrial class machines. For huge manufacturing operations these machines can typically be from 12' to 50' wide and up to 350' long cutting areas. Often they are equipped with full rotating bevel heads (for contour beveling at up to 45 degrees)...and often 4 or more plasma systems up to 1000 amps each. Prices can range from $200,000 to a milion dollars per machine.

That is kind of a quick assessment of the mix of cnc plasma/oxyfuel machines that are in the world market today. There are of course machines that fall in the cracks between my classifications.....but there is not one machine that can do it all.

I personally like the first class....the entry level machines (I have one in my home shop)....as we are pushing the technology in that class while forcing the price to stay down! It is entirely possible to get parts off a $12,000 cutting machine that look just as good....and have tolerances that are just as good as those from a high end, $500,000 industrial machine......however, the pile of parts that are cut over a 24 hour period with that big expensive machine will be bigger, the tolerances will be extremely consistent, and the cost per part will be substantially lower than the small pile of parts off the entry level machine.

So.....when we compare pricing and performance of machines....lets make sure we are looking at apples to apples comparisons! I have seen installations with $100,000 machines that would have been just as happy with a low cost machine...and I have seen the opposite situation!

Jim Colt

[WSS]

Originally Posted by Torchhead Besides, if it ran on a MAC it would have to cost double the PC price TOM C

Actually, it would probably be triple and worth every penny!

Tommy

[TerraWombat]

Originally Posted by WSS Actually, it would probably be triple and worth every penny! Tommy

And you wouldn't even have to DO anything. You just think of the part you want to make in your MIND and the Mac draws it in CAD, creates a tool path, purchases the material for you (and covers the expense), loads it into the machine, and cuts it!

[WSS]

Sometimes you don't even have to think about it! A MAC is like a good valet or servant. It knows what you want before you do.

[Greolt]

So did anyone figure out what the difference is?

Sheetcam standard and TNG that is.

Website tells me nothing.

[Bubba]

The biggest differences are:
1. TNG is a re-write and will contain all new features. Plain Sheetcam will not continue to be updated with all the features, (IIRC only bug updates).
2. It has both a windows and linux versions.