Reply with QuoteNever mind. Now it's working. Weird.Originally Posted by jsantos
Can't view larger version of thumbnails
Is there something wrong with viewing the larger version of the thumbnails? All I get is a black square and an error message saying I'm not authorized.
Never mind. Now it's working. Weird.
Now you don't have any excuse not to finish the Mayan Calendar. Everyone is waiting for it. :-)
That looks good CarveOne, I'm sure the infrared sensor will pick up that white paint very easily even though the paint is only 1/4 the circumference.
If the router bottom is plastic you might be able to make a small flat plate that goes on the bottom with a couple of self tap screws into those small triangular holes (that you can see on each side). It looks about the right size for a couple of 4mm x 10mm plastics screws like the ones they use on VCR recorders to hold the top cover on.
Also, if you attach +5v to the SuperPID (you don't need the mains voltage, just the 5v) you can point the sensor at the white/black areas and the sensor reading is shown on the "view spindle" bargraph feature on the display. This should give you a pretty good handle on the distance and angle etc to set up the sensor.
Last edited by RomanLini; 11-07-2010 at 03:30 AM. Reason: addition + fix silly mistake
In an email reply to Val last evening I mentioned that I could probably attach the sensor to a small piece of pcb material and then epoxy the pcb material to the router case. I'll take a look at using screws instead of epoxy. The shaft lock will be on a lot of router models and will have to be dealt with on a case by case basis. I'll take photos of the Hitachi, PC7518, and the HF trim router shafts today just for reference purposes. You will be able to see what your customers will be dealing with for these models if you save the photos.That looks good CarveOne, I'm sure the infrared sensor will pick up that white paint very easily even though the paint is only 1/4 the circumference.
If the router bottom is plastic you might be able to make a small flat plate that goes on the bottom with a couple of self tap screws into those small triangular holes (that you can see on each side). It looks about the right size for a couple of 4mm x 10mm plastics screws like the ones they use on VCR recorders to hold the top cover on.
Also, if you attach +5v to the SuperPID (you don't need the mains voltage, just the 5v) you can point the sensor at the white/black areas and the sensor reading is shown on the "view spindle" bargraph feature on the display. This should give you a pretty good handle on the distance and angle etc to set up the sensor.
The Wite-Out dried to a matte bright white color. The surface is probably a little smoother than Liquid Paper but is not shiny. I don't know yet how easily it flakes off.
Couple of questions - What happens if the AC power is applied before the 5vdc to the Super-PID? Is the triac biased off? (Not that I would trust it that way for bit changes)
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
What was the conclusion to the RF/EMI noise? My shop is lit up fairly well with lights, all have electronics ballasts. I plan on using shielded wire to everything including power (overkill), and twisting the powers. What ended up saving you?
The earth ground wire to the breaker panel is three to four feet long and conforms to electrical code. To attempt to effectively shield an earth ground wire is not going to improve anything. All of the AC wiring in the building goes back to the breaker panel's ground terminal bar, where the earth ground wire is connected, so there is just one ground point that branches out to the lights and the wall outlets.
Ground rods will corrode and eventually lose effectiveness with age. Very dry soil causes the ground resistance to go up also.
Unfortunately, the output side of the ballasts going to the light tubes is ~800vac according to the ballast labeling. I looked at them this morning.
The real issue here is that the ballasts should not be generating RF signals that interferes with other equipment at all. There are FCC regulations about that, but I don't know how it relates to devices like these ballasts. The RF noise needs to be killed at the source so that it doesn't radiate off of the AC wiring. It means adding RF bypass capacitors at the ballast inputs, toroid cores on the input wires to the ballasts, or replace the ballasts with ones that don't radiate RF energy.
I never noticed the problem until I recently took a radio out to the shop. I'm just guessing that it may be having a negative effect on my stepper tracking problem. It may actually be something unrelated to the RF noise problem within the FM band and other frequencies.
CarveOne
I could turn off the lights and run the machine from ambient daylight with the garage door and entrance door open, and the lights didn't have any effect on the racking I was seeing due to one motor not exactly tracking the other motor on the gantry. The lights only affect the FM radio band. I didn't try the AM band as just about anything will affect that. The lights still prevent listening to FM and will continue to do so until I find a way to prevent it or replace the light fixtures. The next step is to remove all of the tubes and turn the lights on to see if the RF noise is still there.
What fixed my CNC router problems was two settings in Mach3 that caused a subtle difference in the way the motor DIR signals were working. The G203V Step and Dir pins must receive 0vdc in one direction and 5vdc (4.86vdc actual) from my C11G breakout board. Mariss stopped by and gave me the information I needed to finally get on the right track to solving the problem.
In Mach3/ Config/Ports and Pins/Output Signals outputs #2 through #8 needs to be disabled. At some point #7 and #8 were set enabled while #2 through #6 were disabled. #7 and #8 are related to the outputs that I am using for the X and A axis. The X and A axis G203V drives were getting missed steps due to running on 0vdc in one direction and 0.67vdc in the other direction. When I disabled outputs #7 and #8 the voltages are now 0vdc and 4.85vdc as they should be.
Just to prove a question that I had, I disengaged the X axis pinion drive from the rack and was able to easily drive the 275 pound gantry in both directions on just the A motor even though the G203V drive was getting 0vdc and 0.67vdc Dir input.
So, when you create a new Mach3 profile, check your driver inputs with a DMM to insure that all Step and Dir inputs are getting the proper logic level voltages.
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
Ok guys and gals, some photos of the sensor installation on the $50 Cummins Tool Sale refurb 1.5hp Ryobi router. The PCB material is 1/16" thick with 2-56 screws and a little JB Weld in the pockets because the screws wouldn't thread into the plastic reliably. The black stuff is black silicone sealer to hold the sensor in position. Sensor spacing is somewhere between 3/32" and 1/8" judging by eye when the rounded sides of the shaft is facing the sensor. The flats are about 1/4" from the sensor. There is no telling what will happen when this router is running because it has two bright LEDs facing the table. It doesn't look easy to disable them other than to paint them black. (Will an LED explode if you bottle up the light and it turns into a laser?)
Photos show a bevel cut for the sensor wires to bend, mounted PCB, and display readings.
Full scale reading is with sensor on the white spot, two bars on the flats (no photo), and four bars with the sensor on the rounded black side of the shaft. blocking the shop lights with my hands does not change the black level reading.
I have not run the router motor yet. Still waiting for the silicone seal to cure.
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
The Super-PID is alive!!
I went for the brass ring and powered up the router. It came alive with not so much as a small burp. I have posted photos of the router installed upside down, and the Super-PID running the router at 5k, 10k, 15k, 20k, and 25k rpm. The router says 25k minimum on the label. I didn't bother to see how fast it will go. If I can find my optical tachometer, and if it still works, I'll see how close it agrees with the Super-PID display.
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
Error display attachment
Why do I keep getting this error? :-(
Webpage error details
User Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; Trident/4.0; SLCC2; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.5.30729; .NET CLR 3.0.30729; Media Center PC 6.0; InfoPath.3; .NET4.0C; .NET4.0E)
Timestamp: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 05:51:10 UTC
Message: Access is denied.
Line: 7
Char: 2946
Code: 0
URI: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/client...n-min.js?v=386
So is the display coming from the sensor sensing the 'wite-out'? You sure it's 25k minimum and not maximum? That's a damn fast router if it can go over 25k!
Looks pretty cool. :-)
That's really great to see that router up and spinning with the Super-PID CarveOne!
I like the setup with the sensor glued on the PCB and a couple of screws into the router, very nicely implemented. Also, your sensor bagraph readings look spot on!
Can I check just for the record, the Ryobi router has no electronics built in at all? So it was always a fixed speed router at about 25k RPM?
It won't hurt the router to crank the Super-PID knob up to full, all that will happen is that the router will receive full power as if it was just plugged directly into the mains. The tacho will then show the max possible speed that router can do (with no load). From your photos I'm thinking it will top out about 28k with no load.
Those white LEDs on the router should not interfere with the spindle opto sensor, it's pretty tough unless it's got bright sunlight etc shining directly into it.
Anyway, that's great to see it coming together!
Don't know anything about your error messages. I use Firefox and don't see any messages like that. Is Microsoft .net framework installed on your computer? Like it or not, that is needed more and more by websites.
The sensor is an infrared light sensing device that creates electrical pulses each time it detects white and black. The magic circuitry in the Super-PID counts the pulses for the tachometer display and also uses the pulses to form a closed loop current control circuit that increases the 120vac current to the router motor as the rpm decreases under bit loading.
The bar graph display also shows the relative position of the speed control potentiometer.
There are other things it can display but I haven't hooked up the two little switches yet to see what they do.
The Ryobi router's label says 25k is the minimum speed it will run at. Not bad for a $50 router that has a plastic case. I'm sure the run-out is not so great but I've not measured it. I'll put it on my old Sears router table when this effort is finished.
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
The Ryobi only has an on/off switch. Definitely is a fixed speed router. I'll see how fast it runs later this morning. It's 29F out there right now.That's really great to see that router up and spinning with the Super-PID CarveOne!
I like the setup with the sensor glued on the PCB and a couple of screws into the router, very nicely implemented. Also, your sensor bagraph readings look spot on!
Can I check just for the record, the Ryobi router has no electronics built in at all? So it was always a fixed speed router at about 25k RPM?
It won't hurt the router to crank the Super-PID knob up to full, all that will happen is that the router will receive full power as if it was just plugged directly into the mains. The tacho will then show the max possible speed that router can do (with no load). From your photos I'm thinking it will top out about 28k with no load.
Those white LEDs on the router should not interfere with the spindle opto sensor, it's pretty tough unless it's got bright sunlight etc shining directly into it.
Anyway, that's great to see it coming together!
The little PCB would have raised the sensor too high on the shaft if I had just glued it to the top surface of the board. I cut a long narrow slot for the sensor to lay into and the cable exits under the board. I have the cable positioned on the router body so that it aligns with the clamp slot in the router mount plates. This allows inserting the router and removing it from the mounts. I may need to file the slots a little wider where the cable lays against the router so that the clamps don't pinch the cable too much.
Just curious, is this the first one in the US to be up and running? Did we see it here first?
By the way folks, this speed control is really smooth in operation. Roman and Val are onto something that could be a big thing for the CNC machine builders everywhere. Congratulations guys, and many thanks.
I would recommend having a completely built unit for sale since many potential buyers will not be willing, or able, or knowledgeable enough, to assemble these safely.
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
Thanks for the Ryobo info. Did you already post the model number?
Yes you're the first CarveOne, a USA first.
A completed unit in a case has always been under consideration, but it's a little price sensitive and needs more research. The goal was to produce a system much cheaper then VFD spindle +VFD control box, which we have done, but going to a completed unit would bump the price up a fair bit, so I can't say anything definite on it at this point.
Just a minor correction; When the router is running, the bargraph display shows the actual power sent to the router (it's not displaying the pot). You will see when cutting something the bar rises a bit, showing you how much more power the router is using to actually perform the cut. A nice feature that lets you "tune" cutting jobs, and no other controllers show this (not even expensive spindle drivers).
(And you are also right, as when the router is stopped, the bargraph can show pot position there as an option.)
Ryobi R163K router (specs and photo on Ryobi's site) The one I have is a factory reconditioned unit.Thanks for the Ryobo info. Did you already post the model number?
Yes you're the first CarveOne, a USA first.
A completed unit in a case has always been under consideration, but it's a little price sensitive and needs more research. The goal was to produce a system much cheaper then VFD spindle +VFD control box, which we have done, but going to a completed unit would bump the price up a fair bit, so I can't say anything definite on it at this point.
Just a minor correction; When the router is running, the bargraph display shows the actual power sent to the router (it's not displaying the pot). You will see when cutting something the bar rises a bit, showing you how much more power the router is using to actually perform the cut. A nice feature that lets you "tune" cutting jobs, and no other controllers show this (not even expensive spindle drivers).
(And you are also right, as when the router is stopped, the bargraph can show pot position there as an option.)
The PDF document on your site knows more than I do. Recommended reading for the merely curious and for builders alike.
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
I found out that the black silicone seal did not cure overnight and was easily wiped off. I cleaned it up and used 5 minute epoxy instead.
When that had cured enough, I made sound level measurements at 36" distance and level with the collet of the inverted router. The meter is set for DBA mode and fast response. This is not a professional grade DB meter. Though the readings may not be perfectly accurate, the differences between the readings give a relative measure of the sound level increases with each 5k rpm increase.
RPM dBa
---- ----
5k = 69
10k = 78
15k = 84
20k = 91
25k = 95
The Ryobi's maximum rpm is about 26,150.
Next will be rpm measurements with the R/C model optical tachometer.
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
In the photo below are the instruments that I am making measurements with.
Though the tachometer is not designed for this kind of application, it appears to have a factor of 20 difference between the displayed number versus the actual rpm when the two blade position is chosen and an equivalent of a "one blade" trigger is read. These numbers will be a little higher because it is a bit difficult to set the rpm on exact numbers. The measured numbers are steady but a couple of them are toggling +/- one digit.
Measured rpm---Calculated rpm---Super-PID display rpm
------------------------------------------------------
250------------5,000--------------~5,000
503/504-------10,060/10,080-----~10,000
751/752-------15,020/15,040-----~15,000
999-----------19,980-------------~20,000
1,252---------25,040-------------~25,000
CarveOne
CarveOne
http://www.carveonecncwoodcraft.com
Glad to see the comparison especially the audible sound range.... I think above 82db is dangerous to human health and we should wear ear protection gadgets.. 15K is almost the right choice and good compromise..
One question can we machine the wood with 15K RPM? what IPM should we keep to get the quality results on 15K spindle speed?
http://free3dscans.blogspot.com/ http://my-woodcarving.blogspot.com/
http://my-diysolarwind.blogspot.com/
Any chance of making a small cover that goes over the router that has some sound deadening material in it? You wouldn't want to enclose it because it would overheat but if you are tricky enough you can really knock some DB's down.
