Build Thread Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router


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Thread: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

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    Default Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Build thread for a large format CNC 5-axis gantry router (composite gantry), similar to the attached photos of commercial models.

    General Specs:
    - 4000mm (X)
    - 4000mm (Y)
    - 2000mm (Z)
    - 360 degree (A)
    - 270 degree (C)
    - ATC Spindle 10kW 9Nm 24000rpm
    - Linux CNC / Mesa 6i25, 7i77 & 7i76
    - Composite Gantry

    We are building this machine for use in our business, Solpont Composite Engineering, for the purpose of:
    - Machining large composite patterns/molds.
    - Machining large aluminium patterns/molds.
    - Post processing of composites parts (trimming & drilling etc).
    - Scanning/probing of existing parts for importing to CAD for product modifications.

    Thank you for your attention, I look forward to your comments and assistance as we progress through this project, hopefully we will make it out the other side.....

    Regards Jono





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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-dms_overhead-gantry-jpg  
    Last edited by jono5axe; 12-20-2017 at 12:13 AM.


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Do you have a plan of your own, or just copying that DMS? How much of it will you be building out of composite materials? Are you using carbon fiber/epoxy or something else? Are you building your own 4th/5th axis head, or sourcing a commercial one? Same question about the ATC - build from scratch or buy?

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    The design started at the tools, >> then toolholder system, >> then spindle.

    Decided on HSK63F toolholder system, Hiteco 24000rpm ATC spindle.








    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-hsk-toolholder-jpg   Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-hiteco-spindle-jpg  
    Last edited by jono5axe; 12-19-2017 at 09:05 PM.


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Making the composite gantry beam first, before steel main frames, to allow the gantry beam extra time to cure / stabilise.

    Construction method:

    - Composite gantry beam 4500mm long x 600mm high x 400mm deep [RHS - rectangular hollow section].
    - Construction: Sandwich construction - marine ply core, internal laminate = 2mm biaxle / double bias glass fibre. External laminate = 4mm carbon/glass fibre. Transverse internal gussets/bulkheads for torsion. Closed ends.
    - Resin system = epoxy.
    - Method: vacuum infusion. [make up core material as C-Section, lay-up inside C-Section, bond in transverse gussets, close C-Section by bonding on last side panel, vacuum infuse external laminate in one hit].
    - Metal threads - 50x20mm m/steel flatbar laminated into the core.


    Pic#1 - vacuum test of the core / internal laminate.






    Pic#2 - finished composite RHS gantry beam (still wearing peelply).



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-gantry-beam-01-jpg   Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-vac-test-jpg  
    Last edited by jono5axe; 12-20-2017 at 05:48 PM.


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Composite Sandwiches.

    The below picture shows a sample of a 'composite sandwich structure'. It shows a laminate on each side of a lower density core material. In this case it is a 12mm rigid foam core (approx 80kg/m3) with 5mm structural glass fibre laminate on each side (this sample also has some kevlar in it, which you can see on the face closest to us). The laminate carries the load (stress), and the thicker the core the stiffer the structure.





    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-composite-sandwich-structure-jpg  


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Quote Originally Posted by jono5axe View Post
    Making the composite gantry beam first, before steel main frames, to allow the gantry beam extra time to cure / stabilise.

    Construction method:

    - Composite gantry beam 4500mm long x 600mm high x 400mm deep
    Great choice of spindle, looks like a fun build

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54
    Hi I see you are doing what kiwis do best, build things better than others can

    I would rethink your Z axes, if you place the linear bearing at the bottom of the Y axes carriage, and the rails mounted on the Z axes moving column you will see that your support of the Z axes will be a lot better than what you have, the rails should move not the linear bearings, the rest looks fine, I build machine like this also, not the carbon fiber, but I am interested in this construction of the beam Mac
    Hi there, thank you for your message. I do understand your point, and I have seen and read that a lot on this forum, but there are reasons for doing it the way it is shown on the picture of the DMS machine.

    It is beneficial to have the Z-axis linear rails/blocks mounted as far apart as possible for the purposes of rigidity in the Z-axis at full extension, but, if the rails are moving up and down then the Z-axis column must also be wide, and this wide column will interfere with the work piece. By fixing the rails to the carriage and moving the blocks up and down the column can be smaller and not compromise the workpiece access of the spindle. For example, the rails/blocks may be mounted 600mm apart on the Y-axis carriage for good rigidity and the Z-axis column can then be say 250mm diameter, and will not collide with the workpiece.

    But, maybe there are other factors that I am not considering?..

    Regards Jono

    Last edited by jono5axe; 12-20-2017 at 06:00 PM.


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    I like that spindle too; did you get the toolholders from the same source? How much did it cost (if you don't mind my asking)? Are you planning to use the Doughty Drive Doughty Drive – The 4th, 5th, & 6th Axis solution head for your 4th/5th axes, which is made in New Zealand?

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    I like that spindle too; did you get the toolholders from the same source? How much did it cost (if you don't mind my asking)? Are you planning to use the Doughty Drive Doughty Drive – The 4th, 5th, & 6th Axis solution head for your 4th/5th axes, which is made in New Zealand?
    The Doughty Drive would not come close to what is need for that spindle

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Spindle weighs 25kg, and may have 100kg cutting force (1 kN) on the tool tip. I have 300Nm hollow harmonic drives for 2-axis head assembly. I will post pictures further down the track.



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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    I will build a 2-axis head. The Hiteco head for this spindle is shown in the pic. I will build something similar to the Hiteco design, which is a pretty universal format...

    I have two 400w servos for it already. And the Harmonic drives.

    [Afterthought: I planned to incorporate a collision mitigation device/coupling into the head design, but have not worked anything out as yet, so if anyone has some knowledge/experience I would be very interested to hear it].

    Jono



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-head-png  
    Last edited by jono5axe; 12-21-2017 at 05:50 PM.


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Got steel unloaded into the workshop yesterday. Pressure starts to come on.....

    (please excuse the crappy photo, and the messy workshop).




    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-steel-jpg  


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Steel laser profiles for the steel main frames build. End caps, gussets, bolt flanges, foot plates, etc.

    Don't know why they put the fragile tape on it, 12mm steel plates......?





    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-laser-profiles-jpg  
    Last edited by jono5axe; 12-21-2017 at 05:54 PM.


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Really ambitious project, is this your first build? I assume you have a bunch of machining, and CNC experience already? Is your design finalized?

    So for that length of travel and the performance you want cutting aluminum, Your Z axis tube will need to be a monster! Are you going for a composite Z axis tube, I assume so?

    For the Z axis, Pneumatic counterbalance or air over oil pneumatics? Rodless Cylinders? Something else?

    Epoxy leveling for the rail mounting surfaces?

    So many questions really. Can't really comment on the design unless I see some drawings / pics from your CAD files.

    Are you modeling your forth and fifth axis based on an already proven solution? And by that I am not talking about the Hiteco design persay, I am talking about the inertias of the harmonic drives, the gear ratio, and the motor torques. The output acceleration of the drive will be 1/gear ratio x the input acceleration from the motor, so really high gear ratios with planetary gears (or harmonic drives) that have large input inertias may hamper your ability to accelerate quickly at the output side.

    Just wondering if you've done the math on that or had someone look at it, or copied those aspects from something that is proven?

    Good luck to you on your project. I look forward to stopping in from time to time to see your progress.

    If I lived in New Zealand I would be banging on your door asking if I could help.



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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    Really ambitious project, is this your first build? I assume you have a bunch of machining, and CNC experience already? Is your design finalized?

    Chuckle - yes, first build, no experience........ But you can't let these things hold you back.

    Are you modeling your forth and fifth axis based on an already proven solution? And by that I am not talking about the Hiteco design persay, I am talking about the inertias of the harmonic drives, the gear ratio, and the motor torques. The output acceleration of the drive will be 1/gear ratio x the input acceleration from the motor, so really high gear ratios with planetary gears (or harmonic drives) that have large input inertias may hamper your ability to accelerate quickly at the output side.

    Just wondering if you've done the math on that or had someone look at it, or copied those aspects from something that is proven?
    Yes, have done some calculations, researched proven machine specs, etc. Yes, z-axis c/balance presents some challenges on a longer travel. Preliminary design is for a pulley reduction (4:1) built into the z-axis assembly powered by a 1/4 length ram. Or a full length rodless setup. But, this has been put to the side for now until we get further into the project. The z-axis is also braked.


    Good luck to you on your project. I look forward to stopping in from time to time to see your progress.

    If I lived in New Zealand I would be banging on your door asking if I could help.
    [/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the offer.



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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Quote Originally Posted by jono5axe View Post
    Chuckle - yes, first build, no experience........ But you can't let these things hold you back.
    It's not funny. You could loose alot of money on this if you're not careful. LOL. I can laugh because it's not my money.

    Quote Originally Posted by jono5axe View Post

    Yes, have done some calculations, researched proven machine specs, etc. Yes, z-axis c/balance presents some challenges on a longer travel. Preliminary design is for a pulley reduction (4:1) built into the z-axis assembly powered by a 1/4 length ram. Or a full length rodless setup. But, this has been put to the side for now until we get further into the project. The z-axis is also braked.
    I don't really know what you mean. What's a 1/4 length ram?

    What do you mean by a pulley reduction 4:1? From what? Stepper? Servo? what size? What lead of ballscrew? What kind of speeds do you want to achieve? You're not really giving me any info that's useful. If you feel you've got it all covered, and this is more of a show and tell, and I'm asking too many questions, no problems, I'm happy to get out the popcorn and watch. Don't worry, as Captain Jack Sparrow would say, I'm rooting for you, mate!

    Your monster Z axis will weigh alot! So you will need a counterbalance. You need to design this before you build or you will find yourself with a bunch of wasted space and less movement than you anticipated. That is an absolute monster amount of Z travel.

    Looks like these guys make ones up to 480" http://www.parkeroriga.com/pdf_catal...002andP120.pdf
    Any idea how much your entire Z axis assembly will weigh, everything that moves up and down? P1V1=P2V2 should help you to size the reservoir. And PV is proportional to T (in Kelvin) will help you to figure out what temp changes will do. So what kind of a counterbalance system do they use on the DMS? Looking at the picture you posted I bet the square thing you can see in between the rails above the Z axis column is a rodless cylinder?

    My advice if you haven't got it all designed yet is to stop what you're doing and draw it out in CAD before you spend any more money on parts or do any more building.

    If you feel like posting pics of your design I will be happy to comment.



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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    I don't really know what you mean. What's a 1/4 length ram?

    What do you mean by a pulley reduction 4:1? From what? Stepper? Servo? what size? What lead of ballscrew? What kind of speeds do you want to achieve? You're not really giving me any info that's useful. If you feel you've got it all covered, and this is more of a show and tell, and I'm asking too many questions, no problems, I'm happy to get out the popcorn and watch. Don't worry, as Captain Jack Sparrow would say, I'm rooting for you, mate!
    For, say, a 1500mm Z travel, a standard ram would need 1500mm extension and therefore an overall extended length of say 3200mm, which is not very suitable when also considering it is mounted onto a z-axis assembly that is already 2.6m off the ground and typical building stud height is 4.5 m. A 'pulley reduction' means a mechanism consisting of a series of pulleys though which runs a cable, chain, or belt which decreases the travel/stroke required for the ram, while increasing the force. So, a shorter more easily accommodated ram may be used for the counterbalance ram. The statement '1/4 length ram' means a ram that has an extension of 1/4 of the length of the z travel, rather than a ram that has to have extension equal to the full travel (i.e. a full length ram).

    J.



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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router










    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-pulley-block-2-jpg   Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router-pulley-block-4-jpg  


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    If you use anything but #1 in your chart, you'll either have to elevate your machine or dig a hole in the floor for your counterweight. Counterweights work okay on fixed-bridge/moving-table designs, but if your Z axis is mounted on a moving beam, it gets a little complicated. I've had good luck with gas struts in situations like that.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: Large Format 5-Axis Gantry Router

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    If you use anything but #1 in your chart, you'll either have to elevate your machine or dig a hole in the floor for your counterweight. Counterweights work okay on fixed-bridge/moving-table designs, but if your Z axis is mounted on a moving beam, it gets a little complicated. I've had good luck with gas struts in situations like that.
    I think what he means is that he would run it backwards. The weight symbol is where the 1/4 stroke pneumatic / hydraulic cylinder would be attached. He want's to run it the opposite way to what you're thinking. And there wouldn't be an actual counterweight.

    Quote Originally Posted by jono5axe View Post
    For, say, a 1500mm Z travel, a standard ram would need 1500mm extension and therefore an overall extended length of say 3200mm, which is not very suitable when also considering it is mounted onto a z-axis assembly that is already 2.6m off the ground and typical building stud height is 4.5 m. A 'pulley reduction' means a mechanism consisting of a series of pulleys though which runs a cable, chain, or belt which decreases the travel/stroke required for the ram, while increasing the force. So, a shorter more easily accommodated ram may be used for the counterbalance ram. The statement '1/4 length ram' means a ram that has an extension of 1/4 of the length of the z travel, rather than a ram that has to have extension equal to the full travel (i.e. a full length ram).

    J.
    When you say ram, I assume you mean pneumatic cylinder. Either that or air over oil cylinder. This bit with the pulleys seems overly complex to me.

    That's why you'd use a rodless cylinder. It doesn't take up he same amount of space as a traditional "Ram" or "Rod" type cylinder. Plus you don't have the same concerns about buckling a long rod. Have you looked at these before? I don't mean this specific brand, I mean the rodless cylinder concept in general, there are several different suppliers of these.



    The first step is to finish the design and determine the weights of everything.

    Let's say your Z axis Weighs 500 lbs. Well 4x that is 2000 lbs!

    So what type of compressor do you have? Say your ram is a 4" diameter bore, 3.14 x 2^2 = 12.56 in^2

    2000 / 12.56 = 159 PSI.

    .................................................. .

    Say you use a rodless cylinder, 3 inches diameter bore, 3.14 x 1.5^2 = 7.065 in^2, 500 / 7.065 = 70.77 PSI.

    So P1V1 = P2V2 neglecting temperature variations.

    Say you have 1500mm of movement, that's 59"

    59 x 7 = 417 in^3

    Let's say you want a maximum force differential of 40 lbs between top and bottom of stroke......40 / 7 = 5.7 PSI difference

    70.7 x (Res + 417) = 76.4 x (Res),

    Res = 5172 in^3 = 44 US gallons.......Jeebers

    So that is for a closed system. Let's say alternatively you use a small reservoir and a regulator and constant supply of air from a compressor. If your Z axis moves at 300 IPM max, 300 IPM x 7 in^2 = 2100 cubic inches per minute = 1.22 Cubic feet per minute at 70.7 PSI and the compressor would need to be constantly supplying air on the upstroke and the regulator would be constantly dumping air on the downstroke.

    So based on this:

    https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/h...ir-d_1363.html

    A compressor with 1/4 HP output would do it. I say output because you have to factor in the compressor's efficiency if looking at input power to the compressor.

    .................................................. ...................

    OK, the other way, with the 1/4 movement and 4” diameter bore.

    (59/4) x 12.5 = 184.3 in^3

    40/12.5 = 3.2 PSI difference

    159 PSI x (Res + 184.3) = 162.2 x (Res)

    Reserve = 9161 In^3 = 39 US Gal reservoir to achieve this in a closed loop.

    Alternatively with a dump valve and air compressor

    300 x 12.5 = 3750 cubic inches per minute = 2.17 cubic feet per minute.

    So a compressor with 1/2 HP output should do it if it is capable of the required pressure.

    …………………………………………� �..

    So if you look at a two inch diameter rodless cylinder with full movement (not 1/4)

    3.14 x 1^2 x P = 500, P = 159 PSI

    59 x 3.14 = 185.26 in^3 per stroke

    40/3.14 = 12.7 PSI difference

    P1V1=P2V2

    159 x (Res + 185) = 171.7 x (Res)

    Reserve = 2316 cubic inches = 10 US gallon reservoir…..about 1/4 the size of the 3 inch diameter bore.

    With a smaller reservoir and dump valve and air compressor

    300 IPM x 3.14 in^2 = 942 cubic inches per minute = 0.5 cubic feet per minute.

    ………………………………………….

    I’m really tired right now, please double check the math for yourself, there could be a mistake.

    Also this is only my opinion. Double check and ask around….find out what they are doing on machines like the DMS.

    So you can see why machines like Hass have very high pressure reservoirs with air over oil pushing against a small cylinder bore.

    I don’t see any advantages in using a DIY pulley system....there has to be something out there for this already that would meet your specs. That's also alot of force on the pulleys / cables, that has the potential to be a safety concern if it's not designed properly. Of course, perhaps you're talking about a commercially made system, I don't know?

    Going forward, my opinion, is that you should spec out your air compression system, finalize the design to know a good estimate for Z weight, and spec out a rodless cylinder capable of the required pressure that you decide to use. If you try for a closed system, without a constantly running air compressor, the pressure needs to go up. With a long stroke and a heavy Z, things get more complicated as I'm sure you know.

    It looks like you'll need either a closed system with a high working pressure, perhaps air over oil like a haas, or a regulated system with a lower working pressure, for which you'd need a compressor capable of keeping up with the pressure needed at the given flow rates. That's for both ways, with the pulley or without. A quick look at some rodless cylinders gives a max working pressure of 100 to 150 PSI, so sourcing components might be an issue. The shorter stroke higher pressure ram should be easy to find but that adds extra complexity with pulleys. There are also rodless cable cylinders and other things available........not sure at this point what you should choose.

    So what kind of pressure do you want to use for your reservoir and do you want a closed system or an open regulated system? For a closed system you would also want to do some calculations on the effect of temperature to the system pressures.

    And that’s just the counterbalance part of the design

    Anyhow, let me know what you think, that’s just my preliminary opinion on this.

    Here is a link to what I meant about Haas, looks like they work with between 650 PSI and 1800 PSI which allows for a small reservoir, and from what I can tell, it looks like a closed system?

    https://diy.haascnc.com/procedures/v...ce-replacement



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