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Thread: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    Nice guy. Intelligent guy. Nice build. I like this guy.

    No where in his build log does he mention what I have suggested for a sandwich. As far as I can tell his sandwich is the rail....epoxy (with some intersting and probably helpful additives)....the steel tube. Which he has done perferctly, but it is not what I suggested.

    Why do you feel the need to repost my entire long winded post but leave out two sentences?
    I tried to copy and paste from a dumb phone. No malicious intent. Again, you're making assumptions on the intent of someone who you don't know. It's a slippery slope.

    What you suggest is fine, you saw no argument from me to the contrary. Have you implemented that feature i to your machine?



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    Quote Originally Posted by louieatienza View Post
    Have you implemented that feature i to your machine?
    No, I haven't. Initially I set it up this way, but if you look at my previous post you will see where I went wrong and had to change my approach.

    I would consider it on future builds, and I would rather try this than mounting my rails directly onto an epoxy surface.

    It's just another option that is available. Obviously machining is the best option if you can afford it.

    Of course, I now know how to do it with an angle grinder and not have to use epoxy. It's just very tedious to do it this way, and I don't think it's an option for most people.

    1Jumper10, I'm looking forward to following your progress.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    No, I haven't. Initially I set it up this way, but if you look at my previous post you will see where I went wrong and had to change my approach.

    I would consider it on future builds, and I would rather try this than mounting my rails directly onto an epoxy surface.

    It's just another option that is available. Obviously machining is the best option if you can afford it.

    Of course, I now know how to do it with an angle grinder and not have to use epoxy. It's just very tedious to do it this way, and I don't think it's an option for most people.

    1Jumper10, I'm looking forward to following your progress.
    Kitamura is one CNC company who still hand-scrapes the bearing surfaces of their machining centers! You have to watch some of their videos; these guys have some mad skills.... But with anything, the more you do it the better you get at it. Home Shop Machinist had a multi-part article on hand scraping, along with a section on power-scraping.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    By Request,

    some speed and acceleration figures:

    This formula:

    Force = (Td x 2 x 3.14 x Efficiency) / (Ph (in mm/Rev) x 0.001)

    Td = Driving Torque (Nm), Force is in Newtons, Ph is the lead in mm/Rev

    Found here:

    Nook Industries

    Yes, the same equation works for Rack and pinion. If you aren't certain, do a few calculations based on the pitch circle radius and compare the numbers. They are the same. If I've made any mistakes, let me know.

    This motor:
    https://www.teknic.com/model-info/CPM-SDSK-3421P-RLN/

    Also, a generic 1kW Servo from EBay is used as a comparison.

    Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-clearpath-graph-jpg

    Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-clearpath-charts-jpg

    A few things I know this graph and charts do not include that would make the results less favorable:

    The inertia of the spinning motor and reduction gear. This gets worse the faster you spin, so worse for a servo than a stepper. I don't know how much, I don't know the angular momentum values to use for the motor and reducer and I haven't done the math.

    Friction. Compared to everything else, I doubt this amounts to much. Nice linear bearings and you can slide it back and forth with one finger.

    Backlash compensation. This requires extra acceleration according to the software manual.

    Cutting Forces.

    I would prefer a servo that has a flatter curve to it, especially when using 10:1 reduction. I hope this helps.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    I would prefer a servo that has a flatter curve to it, especially when using 10:1 reduction. I hope this helps.
    That's where the Clearpaths are at a huge disadvantage to AC servos.
    A 400w DMM servo has 3.8Nm of peak torque up to 3000rpm, and still has about 3.25Nm at 4000 rpm.
    You can figure 400+oz of torque all the way up to 4500rpm. Gear it 10:1, and you can get 4000 oz in of torque at the gearbox output, at 450rpm. With a 1-1/4" pinion, that gives you 1800ipm and 400lbs of force.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    By Request,

    some speed and acceleration figures:

    This formula:

    Force = (Td x 2 x 3.14 x Efficiency) / (Ph (in mm/Rev) x 0.001)

    Td = Driving Torque (Nm), Force is in Newtons, Ph is the lead in mm/Rev

    Found here:

    Nook Industries

    Yes, the same equation works for Rack and pinion. If you aren't certain, do a few calculations based on the pitch circle radius and compare the numbers. They are the same. If I've made any mistakes, let me know.

    This motor:
    https://www.teknic.com/model-info/CPM-SDSK-3421P-RLN/

    Also, a generic 1kW Servo from EBay is used as a comparison.

    Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-clearpath-graph-jpg

    Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-clearpath-charts-jpg

    A few things I know this graph and charts do not include that would make the results less favorable:

    The inertia of the spinning motor and reduction gear. This gets worse the faster you spin, so worse for a servo than a stepper. I don't know how much, I don't know the angular momentum values to use for the motor and reducer and I haven't done the math.

    Friction. Compared to everything else, I doubt this amounts to much. Nice linear bearings and you can slide it back and forth with one finger.

    Backlash compensation. This requires extra acceleration according to the software manual.

    Cutting Forces.

    I would prefer a servo that has a flatter curve to it, especially when using 10:1 reduction. I hope this helps.
    Actually the inertia at the reducer input reduces the inertia of the load by a factor that of the square of the reduction ratio while the torque is increased by the gear ratio (ignoring efficiency). Which is one reason why rack and pinion systems are very efficient. Ideally, maximum acceleration is achieved when the rotor inertia matches the load inertia. Practically, this is not always possible, as it may not be the most efficient, or cost-effective, solution. There may not be a motor fast enough; or the inertia and efficiency of the gearbox negates any gains from the lower inertia of a faster motor. 10:1 is probably the largest reduction that's available as single stage in a servo grade planetary gearhead; higher would involve second or third stages which reduce the efficiency. The key is choosing the proper pinion size which gives you the closest match between rotor inertia and load inertia. Here too, lies some decisions, since a smaller pinion would require less torque to drive a load, but may encounter more friction and noise than a larger pinion and more prone to backlash. A larger pinion would give greater tooth contact, which can lead to smoother operation and less backlash, but requires more torque to drive.

    Related to this, the higher the inertia mismatch, the more important is it to remove backlash or compliance, as it can lead to servo instability due to overshoot. While the gains can be adjusted for a more "stiffer" system, that can lead to "dithering" or "hunting..." In a good way, the ClearPath is a nice solution, since it seemingly has a very robust auto-tuning feature.

    There are two great motor sizing calculators online, and they are free to download. One is called VisualSizer, and has a large catalog of available motors (though you could find one with specs close to your planned motor), and Kollmorgen's Motioneering software. You can input literally every component.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    You guys are making my head hurt.

    The Clearpath SDSK motors aren't really comparable to a true closed feedback loop servo motor. From what I've read, true servo's like DYMM and panasonic have adjustable error allowance that can be set very fine. Clear Path's are really a glorified stepper motor that's quiet. They can be out of position by a minimum of 1/4 of a rotation before they shutdown but thats not comparable to a true servo system. They are pretty much a drop in replacement for a stepper motor, which is about the level of my expertise. I have no experience tuning or operating a servo system and I don't wish to deal with the added complexity. So for my needs, they are the best solution available.

    Nic77 - Thanks for running the numbers. I'll have to look them over carefully because something seems off. But I'm confident there is a CP model that will work well. They offer the same motor in a 3 stack and 4 stack version. The 4 stack has almost double the torque of the one NIC77 crunched and they're all about the same cost.

    I worked up the numbers awhile back based on my desired top speed and my experience with my prior build. When I get my gantry together and weigh it and I have some firm numbers, I'll call Teknic and see what they recommend.

    Thanks all for the second look.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    Quote Originally Posted by louieatienza View Post
    Actually the inertia at the reducer input reduces the inertia of the load by a factor that of the square of the reduction ratio
    Well, that did it. LOL! I couldn't rest until I had figured it out. I learned a few things. I'll do it again for my own build but with the ballscrew calculations (which are a bit different) when I have a bit more time.

    Quote Originally Posted by louieatienza View Post
    There are two great motor sizing calculators online, and they are free to download. One is called VisualSizer, and has a large catalog of available motors (though you could find one with specs close to your planned motor), and Kollmorgen's Motioneering software. You can input literally every component.
    I'll have to check those out sometime. Today, I just felt compelled to go through the equations myself to try and understand how they work.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    You guys are making my head hurt.
    Turn away! Don't read this post! Like I said I just couldn't rest until I had figured out these equations.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    When I get my gantry together and weigh it and I have some firm numbers, I'll call Teknic and see what they recommend.
    That sounds like a good idea. I'm just glad that you were able to see what some of the math was before you bought your servos. So now you have some options to choose a different model number.

    So here are the revised results including inertial effects.

    I looked up the motor inertia here:

    https://www.teknic.com/model-info/CPM-SDSK-3421P-RLN/

    And the gear inertia here:

    Gear Reducers | In-Line | PE-N34-010G | GAM

    Equations can be found here:

    http://www.engr.sjsu.edu/bjfurman/co...iaformulas.pdf

    And here:

    http://www.diequa.com/download/articles/inertia.pdf

    Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-clearpath-r-p-inertia-angular-graph-jpg

    Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-clearpath-r-p-inertia-angular-charts-jpg

    In this particular case the results got worse. I think what they mean is that the efficiency can get better over a system without any gear reduction, but not necessarily better than the first approximation method I used. Perhaps it depends alot on the motor and reduction gear characteristics which are not used in the simpler approximation method. Interesting how there is no place to input the reduction gear efficiency using the more advanced inertial method. Perhaps this is partially accounted for in the reduction gear inertia number.

    Neither approximation method is all inclusive, so the more complex software has it's place. And of course this still doesn't include things like backlash reduction acceleration, required cutting forces, or bearing friction.

    The optimum gear ratio changes with gantry weight. I threw one line at "optimum" onto the graph to see what would happen.

    Well, I'm off for at least a few days. Lots of work to do. I don't want to see or talk about this stuff for a while. I'm worn out.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-clearpath-r-p-inertia-angular-graph-fixed

    How embarrassing. I forgot to divide the mass by two using the inertial method to account for two motors moving the gantry. There we go, all fixed.

    Now I'm really done.



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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    You guys are making my head hurt.

    The Clearpath SDSK motors aren't really comparable to a true closed feedback loop servo motor. From what I've read, true servo's like DYMM and panasonic have adjustable error allowance that can be set very fine. Clear Path's are really a glorified stepper motor that's quiet. They can be out of position by a minimum of 1/4 of a rotation before they shutdown but thats not comparable to a true servo system. They are pretty much a drop in replacement for a stepper motor, which is about the level of my expertise. I have no experience tuning or operating a servo system and I don't wish to deal with the added complexity. So for my needs, they are the best solution available.

    Nic77 - Thanks for running the numbers. I'll have to look them over carefully because something seems off. But I'm confident there is a CP model that will work well. They offer the same motor in a 3 stack and 4 stack version. The 4 stack has almost double the torque of the one NIC77 crunched and they're all about the same cost.

    I worked up the numbers awhile back based on my desired top speed and my experience with my prior build. When I get my gantry together and weigh it and I have some firm numbers, I'll call Teknic and see what they recommend.

    Thanks all for the second look.
    LOL we can get carried away... really for our unique builds it doesn't matter too much if we oversize. For an OEM, an extra $20 an axis is $120k in lost profit over 2000 units. For us it equates to a little more juice draw than necessary.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    You guys are making my head hurt.

    The Clearpath SDSK motors aren't really comparable to a true closed feedback loop servo motor. From what I've read, true servo's like DYMM and panasonic have adjustable error allowance that can be set very fine. Clear Path's are really a glorified stepper motor that's quiet. They can be out of position by a minimum of 1/4 of a rotation before they shutdown but thats not comparable to a true servo system. They are pretty much a drop in replacement for a stepper motor, which is about the level of my expertise. I have no experience tuning or operating a servo system and I don't wish to deal with the added complexity. So for my needs, they are the best solution available.

    Nic77 - Thanks for running the numbers. I'll have to look them over carefully because something seems off. But I'm confident there is a CP model that will work well. They offer the same motor in a 3 stack and 4 stack version. The 4 stack has almost double the torque of the one NIC77 crunched and they're all about the same cost.

    I worked up the numbers awhile back based on my desired top speed and my experience with my prior build. When I get my gantry together and weigh it and I have some firm numbers, I'll call Teknic and see what they recommend.

    Thanks all for the second look.
    The stator on the ClearPath motors are skewed, so they're more servo-like than stepper-like. Thus you also don't get that "cogging" you get from stepper motors. They're more servomotor with stepper "traits" than the other way around.



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    Default Motor mounts

    I machined 3 motor mounts and the plate that will mount the spindle to the Z axis using my friends router. I have a lot to learn about machining aluminum. But I did it all without burning a bit or ruining any parts. It took longer than it should have but they turned out ok. I didnt put much effort into a finishing pass because all the machined surfaces will be underneath something and wont be visible. But it would have made for less hand finishing. I did a test fit on the axis and everything fit. Tapped a few holes and set them aside to work on the base...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170525_175808-jpg   Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170525_125507-jpg   Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170524_161200-1-jpg  


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    Default Base

    Picked up my steel on Tuesday. Its all 3/16" wall rectangular steel tubing. We layed it out on some pads and we got them all level with a laser level. Then started welding.
    After the top was done we started on the legs. Going to use 6 legs.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170525_100917-jpg   Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170525_114013-jpg   Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170525_125431-jpg   Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170525_175641-jpg  

    Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170525_175706-jpg   Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's-img_20170525_175720-jpg  


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    Default Re: Motor mounts

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    I machined 3 motor mounts and the plate that will mount the spindle to the Z axis using my friends router. I have a lot to learn about machining aluminum. But I did it all without burning a bit or ruining any parts. It took longer than it should have but they turned out ok. I didnt put much effort into a finishing pass because all the machined surfaces will be underneath something and wont be visible. But it would have made for less hand finishing. I did a test fit on the axis and everything fit. Tapped a few holes and set them aside to work on the base...
    Not bad... Though as a tip, after you drill the holes, run some sheetrock screws through the holes, with finish washers. Then you don't have to worry about creating tabs. In fact, I would have drilled the holes first, then use 2 screws at the outer holes to lock the part down, THEN mill the pocket. The aluminum sheet stays down better that way, makes less chatter, and thus a better finish...



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    Nice work!

    I don't know what kind of spindle is in your friend's router, but when I used an actual router to cut aluminum (which is a bad idea, because it will kill the router prematurely), I found the best thing was to use a sharp carbide bit. Very sharp. And to run at a very shallow depth of cut and a feedrate of more than 100 IPM. If you're using something to cut aluminum that doesn't have alot of HP at lower RPMs, you make up the rules as you go. If you can hear the bit chattering, something is wrong. I've seen spindles that look like that cutting aluminum very well in videos I've seen, but I can't comment beyond that.

    When my new build is finished I plan on trying 3 flute bits. I have read that they are far less prone to resonating and many people have said they are awesome at cutting aluminum. And this time I'll have lots of horsepower in the 6000 RPM range. Machine stiffness and HP at the spindle are the two key limiting factors in cutting aluminum at higher material removal rates in my opinion.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    I've tried 3 and 4 flute bits in the past with shallow DOC and that was ok. I got into trouble when cutting deep channels because I couldn't evacuate the chips well enough and welded alu to the bit. With this part I switched to a 6mm single flute bit and a .115" DOC and about 40 IPM feed rate. That worked fine, although I was nervous, until I got into a deep channel again. But I slowed the feedrate down and that allowed me to clear out the chips. I also didn't use any coolant because I forgot to bring it with me. I used some light weight spray lube a few times that my friend had handy. That helped. I'll get more practice machining aluminum in the future I'm sure of it.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    If I remember correctly, with my old router, I would use a 1/2 inch super sharp solid carbide bit, 120 IPM with a depth of cut of around 0.01. No coolant. That gave a super finish and no chatter and I could run for hours without worrying about welding onto the bit or overheating. The chips were so light they would just fly out of the groove so there wasn't a problem of evacuation. The router did like to ingest them though, and that's not good. It just took a long time to machine things. For something like the plates you have made, it would be fast enough.

    Obviously you can do better with a spindle and your friend's machine is stiffer than my old design which used V groove bearings.

    .115 is 2.9mm so that's almost half the bit diameter of a 6mm bit. I think you would do better to triple the IPM and reduce DOC by at least 3. You could always give it a try next time and see what happens. I've never used a single flute bit.



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    Quote Originally Posted by NIC 77 View Post
    Nice work!

    I don't know what kind of spindle is in your friend's router, but when I used an actual router to cut aluminum (which is a bad idea, because it will kill the router prematurely), I found the best thing was to use a sharp carbide bit. Very sharp. And to run at a very shallow depth of cut and a feedrate of more than 100 IPM. If you're using something to cut aluminum that doesn't have alot of HP at lower RPMs, you make up the rules as you go. If you can hear the bit chattering, something is wrong. I've seen spindles that look like that cutting aluminum very well in videos I've seen, but I can't comment beyond that.

    When my new build is finished I plan on trying 3 flute bits. I have read that they are far less prone to resonating and many people have said they are awesome at cutting aluminum. And this time I'll have lots of horsepower in the 6000 RPM range. Machine stiffness and HP at the spindle are the two key limiting factors in cutting aluminum at higher material removal rates in my opinion.
    6000rpm x 3 flutes x .0027" (about the mid to high end for aluminum chipload) = 48ipm... you can double the feedrate simply by doubling spindle rpm. I don't even think about finish quality too much when I'm roughing, as long as chips fly hot. With a VFD you'll have more horsepower at higher speed. 3 flute are good, I like them, but regardless of flute you need the right chipload. Higher HP allows greater aDoC and rDoC, THAT'S where your MRR goes up. Constant engagement toolpaths really help allow your machine to achieve higher speeds...

    As to 3 flute endmills, I like the ones from Widia and SGS. The Widia AluSurf has an unequal flute spacing that reduces redonance. Most higher end endmills have something similar. PITA to measure however.



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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    I've tried 3 and 4 flute bits in the past with shallow DOC and that was ok. I got into trouble when cutting deep channels because I couldn't evacuate the chips well enough and welded alu to the bit. With this part I switched to a 6mm single flute bit and a .115" DOC and about 40 IPM feed rate. That worked fine, although I was nervous, until I got into a deep channel again. But I slowed the feedrate down and that allowed me to clear out the chips. I also didn't use any coolant because I forgot to bring it with me. I used some light weight spray lube a few times that my friend had handy. That helped. I'll get more practice machining aluminum in the future I'm sure of it.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    Riding herd with a ShopVac helps... the big problem with slots is the full (180°) engagement. I'll usually go 1/4D depth. Also the shortest tool possible with the smallest stickout possible.

    If you check out the bits and endmills thread, the first page has some video links, where I have some parameters listed.



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    Default Re: Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

    Finished the main parts of the base. Braced it with 2x2x3/16" angle iron and filled all 6 legs with sand. It's upside down in the pics. All parts of the base will be sand filled. Got just under 100lbs into the legs.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



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Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's

Last One - 4'x6' Steel, Epoxy and ClearPath servo's