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  1. #201
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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    That's an advantage. I spent a lot of time researching Modbus over RS485 last night. I guess I feel like if I'm going to the trouble of implementing it, I want it to do more than just adjust spindle speed. I want some feedback from the VFD.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    RPM was a must have for me, but when I come to realize the VFD was only able to write back set frequency to calculate the RPM it seemed to be a waste of time. If your spindle was to cut under any load and rpm actually reduced it wouldn't show because the set frequency wouldn't change. I do believe most VFD's work this way.

    What I did implement in plugins and find very useful is the RPM from spindle override, we all been there when once cycle start was pressed RPM needed to be adjusted, seeing the actual RPM eliminated any calculating when trying to do this quickly.(see pic below)

    If you go with PWM this feature can also be implemented with a macro.

    2nd build - For a friend-spindle-override-jpg

    Dan



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Sact is updated much faster than the RPM (in fact, immediately) so if one does not want to risk to start cutting before the RPM is up then one must add dwell delay which is constant. It is true that most VFDs only give information about the frequency, but that frequency at start, when the M3 or M4 command is given, is much more accurate than the Sact, since Sact is immediate, while the RPM information from the VFD is not. It is based on the frequency response of the VFD and is a response based on what the VFD is feeding the spindle motor with, not just a mirrored back message about the frequency command from the software controlling the VFD. I know that at least my VFD, when it says the RPM is at a certain value then the RPM is REALLY very near, and it is accurate enough, milling can be started without further delay, no need for dwell. Additionally there is also a digital flag saying "spindle speed reached" and that flag indicates that the speed is within a few % (parameter defines the %) of the commanded speed. Sact is not the actual spindle speed, it is a set speed, one which we want the VFD to use.

    So, since the spindle speed information given by the VFD is more accurate than Sact (during start and stop) in my opinion it is NOT useless to read it, but it depends what you do with it and how the VFD you have behaves.

    Normally if you have a VFD which is a vector controlled (with or without sensors) then you get additional advantage. A sensorless vector controlled VFD monitors the motor coil currents, voltages and frequencies, as well as internal temperatures so it isn't actually completely sensorless, and knows when the spindle needs more current because of harder cut or whatever, and in that case it will increase the RPM, so the RPM will not drop. What a sensorless vector controlled VFD does not know is the exact angle of the spindle motor and the measured RPM.

    If the cutting load is a problem then the VFD (spindle) is underspecified or configured wrong, or used under wrong conditions (depth of cut, feed rate, RPM, type of tool and so on). Yes, motors cutting air and motors cutting in material are not the same, but the dropping of RPM should not be important and should not present an issue because if it does then something is wrong.

    Monitoring of VFD and spindle health is not done through RPM monitoring but through temperature and current monitoring. Those are the parameters to read if monitoring health is the goal.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan911 View Post
    RPM was a must have for me, but when I come to realize the VFD was only able to write back set frequency to calculate the RPM it seemed to be a waste of time. If your spindle was to cut under any load and rpm actually reduced it wouldn't show because the set frequency wouldn't change. I do believe most VFD's work this way.

    What I did implement in plugins and find very useful is the RPM from spindle override, we all been there when once cycle start was pressed RPM needed to be adjusted, seeing the actual RPM eliminated any calculating when trying to do this quickly.(see pic below)

    If you go with PWM this feature can also be implemented with a macro.



    Dan
    Which VFD do you have? I dont know as much as you two gentlemen, just starting to wrap my head around all this but it seems to me that the Hitachi WJ200 was designed to be ran remotely over an ethernet network according to the literature on the Addon card. I cannot imagine that their modbus implementation was not designed to give accurate and relevent feedback due to this design goal but i could be wrong.



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    I am far from being an expert regarding VFD, but as far as I know, no VFD can give you real RPM unless there is a feedback from the spindle to the VFD regarding the actual RPM. However, of course, based on the assumption that your system is implemented right and everything is working as expected, the Modbus information you get from the VFD regarding the RPM should be pretty accurate because it is always based on the configuration the VFD has regarding the time the VFD takes for outputting the frequency necessary to get the right RPM. So in that respect you are right, any decent VFD should be able give you pretty accurate information regarding the actual RPM because that is a tuning you should have done during the installation.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf View Post
    Which VFD do you have? I dont know as much as you two gentlemen, just starting to wrap my head around all this but it seems to me that the Hitachi WJ200 was designed to be ran remotely over an ethernet network according to the literature on the Addon card. I cannot imagine that their modbus implementation was not designed to give accurate and relevent feedback due to this design goal but i could be wrong.
    My post you quoted was just stating how most, if not all VFD retrieve current RPM via Modbus, whether its Ethernet or RS-485, and is very accurate. What I meant by waste of time is a waste of resources. If I set my RPM to S12000 Modbus will continually write (polling) this string to set frequency to 200hz. Now... if I set up Modbus for RPM monitoring, Modbus would send a read command string and the reply would be 200Hz. To me this seemed redundant and a waste of resources. Especially since if spindle comes under load and RPM was reduced the VFD is still going to return it's set frequency 200hz 12000rpm.

    Some of the higher end VFD's like Hitachi have Sensorless vector Control (SLV) and utilizes control algorithms for motor control. If you were able to set up and read from this address than it may be possible to see a drop in RPM, I really don't know for sure and would be interested in reading of someone who accomplished this. This still wouldn't be actual spindle rpm, the only way to achieve that is with additional hardware.

    Dan

    ****EDIT*****

    Huanyang VFD and LS Industrial Systems VFD



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf View Post
    I cannot imagine that their modbus implementation was not designed to give accurate and relevent feedback due to this design goal but i could be wrong.
    WhiteWolf, I checked the manual of your WJ200 and it seems that in functionality it is very similar to my Bosch Rexroth EFC5610. It is also a Sensorless Vector Control type (yours called "SLV") and has the same monitoring possibilities and the responses are based on READING of values, not mirrored commands. In other words, the monitored ACTUAL frequency is the actual frequency output to your motor by the VFD. There is also a "speed arrival" flag (called Frequency Arrival Output on page 176 of your manual) which can be monitored if you want to skip the fixed dwell delay otherwise necessary.

    Like I said earlier, the RPM drop under load is not important because it should be handled by correct configuration of the VFD or the actual milling process. If your VFD is in sensorless vector control mode then the VFD will keep the RPM necessary for the load to keep a constant torque. You need to tune the VFD to your motor to get optimal functionality. Auto tuning might work, but in my case I had to adjust a few parameters manually. Unfortunately, I don't remember which of my parameters were incorrect after auto tuning, but it was not very difficult to get it right.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    LOL yes, and when READING these values it will read what you set your RPM to regardless. Just like I posted. So make sure you have VFD set up properly.

    Dan



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan911 View Post
    My post you quoted was just stating how most, if not all VFD retrieve current RPM via Modbus, whether its Ethernet or RS-485, and is very accurate. What I meant by waste of time is a waste of resources. If I set my RPM to S12000 Modbus will continually write (polling) this string to set frequency to 200hz. Now... if I set up Modbus for RPM monitoring, Modbus would send a read command string and the reply would be 200Hz. To me this seemed redundant and a waste of resources. Especially since if spindle comes under load and RPM was reduced the VFD is still going to return it's set frequency 200hz 12000rpm.

    Some of the higher end VFD's like Hitachi have Sensorless vector Control (SLV) and utilizes control algorithms for motor control. If you were able to set up and read from this address than it may be possible to see a drop in RPM, I really don't know for sure and would be interested in reading of someone who accomplished this. This still wouldn't be actual spindle rpm, the only way to achieve that is with additional hardware.

    Dan

    ****EDIT*****

    Huanyang VFD and LS Industrial Systems VFD
    I have a lot ahead of me in learning to setup my CNC, then learning to use it. But I am a programmer, once i wrap my head around all this and feel comfortable with the machine, I will start experimenting.



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    WhiteWolf -

    I have a Hitachi WJ200- 022SF.

    I was reading the manual last night specifically looking for ways to interface/control it and there are several. The typical ones such as MODBUS, 0-10V, PLC (Hitachi calls this one Intelligent Terminal and it uses discrete logic level inputs), Pulse train, Analog current, and I think thats it. SOme are just speed setting with no feedback and MODBUS and PLC obviously polling type networks. From a non-programmer perspective of the DIY'er two options interest me; I could simply use 0-10V for speed control and I could monitor current with a display guage connected to the right terminal. I would rather monitor current than RPM since the VFD will always try to maintain a constant RPM and by monitoring current, it will tell me how hard its working to to do that. Can I monitor and display current output with MODBUS?

    Second, the Pulse train input option seems like the same signal type as step-and-direction signals?? Can someone confirm or refute? If it is, UCCNC can output Step-and-direction signal for spindle control. If that works and works better than 0-10V, (Gerry said his results using 0-10v control were unsatisfactory and he was leaning toward MODBUS) then that and the current display gauge would work well for me.

    The input specs for the Pulse train listed in the manual is 24vdc, 32KHz max.



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan911 View Post
    LOL yes, and when READING these values it will read what you set your RPM to regardless. Just like I posted. So make sure you have VFD set up properly.

    Dan
    LOL indeed. This is from page 176:

    Frequency Arrival Output - The frequency arrival signal, [FA1] or [FA2], is intended to indicate when the inverter output has reached (arrived at) the target frequency. You can adjust the timing of the leading and trailing edges of the signal via two parameters specified to acceleration and deceleration ramps, C042 and C043. Refer also to chapter 4.
    Explained in more details on page 258 and 259.

    Registers 1001 (hex) is the value (read only) of the output frequency (two bytes) and 100B (hex) is the actual frequency value. None of those are a mirrored value of register 0001 and 0002 (hex), which is a read/write type and which is the actual set frequency. So, if you read back the same value all the time then you read the wrong register. When you set the VFD to certain RPM you actually write to 0001 and 0002 but when the frequency is read back it should read 1001 and 1002 or 100B and 100C. Those values together with the Frequency Arrival Output indicate that you are up and running. I agree that reading back the set frequency is pointless, but actual frequency should NOT be the same unless the RPM is up at the set value.

    Note, that I don't have the WJ200, so the above is from the manual which means that I can be wrong, but that is the way my VFD works and from reading the manual of the WJ200, the way I see it, is that the Hitachi works basically the same way, except that I can read back RPM, not just frequency.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/AdaptingCamera/videos
    https://adapting-camera.blogspot.com


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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    (Gerry said his results using 0-10v control were unsatisfactory and he was leaning toward MODBUS)
    Actually I said that IF the 0-10V results were poor, I'd go the Modbus route. I still haven't hooked it up to try it. I still need to buy a bunch of electronics stuff, and I'm still trying to figure out what I need, so I can buy most of it at once.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Sorry. I misunderstood.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Jumper, can you take a current photo of your wiring setup under the machine? just curious as to how you wired everything up.. thanks



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    It will be a couple days before I can get a current pic but I have a few in progress for now

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2nd build - For a friend-0926161234-jpg   2nd build - For a friend-1002161612-jpg   2nd build - For a friend-1002161618-jpg   2nd build - For a friend-1002161618a-jpg  

    2nd build - For a friend-1002161619-jpg  


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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    It will be a couple days before I can get a current pic but I have a few in progress for now
    Still learning here... why is there a need for two seperate relays (the omron and the winford?

    I noticed in your new build thread that you are looking to use the MB2 BOB instead of the two winford BOBs what is the reasoning here besides adding cost for both the BOB and 24VDC power supply to run it.

    I am trying to wrap my head around this all so i can order whatever I am missing from this. I have a 12v/5v dual power supply not included in the pic.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2nd build - For a friend-img_0619-jpg  


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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    I noticed in your new build thread that you are looking to use the MB2 BOB instead of the two winford BOBs what is the reasoning here besides adding cost for both the BOB and 24VDC power supply to run it.

    Those Winford boards are the most basic breakout boards you can find. They literally just break out the wires into terminals, and nothing else.
    A board like the MB2 adds a lot of features.
    1) 24V, which greatly increases noise immunity.
    2) Isolated inputs, which can protect the UC300 from damage.
    3) Differential step and direction signals.
    4) Analog output to control a spindle, along with two relays.
    5) Charge pump signal.

    Chooice of breakout board really comes down to what you want, or need for the breakout board to do.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteWolf View Post
    Still learning here... why is there a need for two seperate relays (the omron and the winford?

    I noticed in your new build thread that you are looking to use the MB2 BOB instead of the two winford BOBs what is the reasoning here besides adding cost for both the BOB and 24VDC power supply to run it.

    I am trying to wrap my head around this all so i can order whatever I am missing from this. I have a 12v/5v dual power supply not included in the pic.
    The original 4relay board was bought from a surplus site for a couple bucks. It states it will operate on a range of 5v-24v. I wanted to exclusively use 12v (coolant pump, and fan) and 24 (sensors, etc.) if possible. When I was testing it with 24V's the relays got pretty hot and I knew it wast going to last very long. So I put it back on the shelf and got the more appropriate 24V board from Winford. So the pic was an early one and it was changed in the final design.

    Correction!!! - I looked at the pics I posted and I just realized what you meant by the Omron board. That is not a relay. It is a 220v 2 pole solid state contactor that turns on my friends dust collector. I dont think you'll have to worry about that. Its pretty nice we can turn it on and off with the UCCNC software. I've got it mapped to the Coolant button if I remember correctly.

    MB2 BOB vs Winford- It is primarily because I am using the UC300ETH on my router whereas for my friend I used the UC400ETH and the MB2 seems to be an industrial quality design. Plus Gerry seems to like it and that is significant in my opinion. The 400 needs an external board to convert a PWM signal to 0-10V for speed control of the spindle. The 300 has this built in. The 400 will only accept 5v logic level signals from sensors. The MB2 will accept 24v inputs. For my friends router I had to get a voltage converter to get a 5v powersource for my sensors and, run the DAC board to convert the PWM signal to 0-10v for spindle speed control. I wont have to with the MB2 for my build. Combining different power sources to interface with a single motion controller is not ideal and can lead to problems if done incorrectly so I dont advise it. However, the UC400ETH and the winford boards are working well this way. But I was very careful. I made sure I had a good ground, even considered the order I connected the individual grounds to the grounding bus bar, eliminated sources of electrical noise where I could and separated it where I couldnt. And I think all the inputs to the UC400 are opto-isolated; servo's, sensors etc. Basically the MB2 has more features and a greater margin for error in the event something shorts out, it will protect the motion controller.

    Looking at your pic, your CP's servo's cricuits are all optically isolated so you can connect them directly to the boards so your good there. If you get good quality home and limit sensors (eg. solid state, proximity sensors or hall effect sensors with a low current draw) you will also be ok. Check your Hitachi manual to be sure but I think its's inputs are also isolated so you should be able to connect it directly as well.

    Last edited by 1Jumper10; 03-28-2017 at 03:48 PM. Reason: Correct statement ref Omron board


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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    I am trying to wrap my head around this all so i can order whatever I am missing from this.
    If you want to use the analog inputs or outputs on the UC300ETH, you might want to get something like this:
    https://www.winford.com/products/brk2x8.php

    I'll be using this for Spindle and Feedrate override pots.

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    The Z-axis linear actuator arrived today. I'm using a Kollmorgen DS4 linear actuator I sourced as new, surplus from E-bay. Its a ballscrew drive, 5mm pitch with a 150mm stroke, NEMA 23 motor mount. It also has a built in clutch that prevents damage if its driven past its travel limts. Its paperwork says it was tested to slip at 16oz/in. This seems a little light and I may have to restrict the torque or acceleration on the Z-axis drive motor to ensure it doesnt slip under normal operation. I have a similar actuator on my current router and it works well. I'll test it when the time comes. Aside from that Its a beefy actuator and sealed well to protect it from the all the debris the Z-axis has to contend with.

    Looks like the forum is being a little finnicky for uploading pics. I'll have to add them later. Got to go pick up the steel for the base

    I had read a post on another forum at some point and i seem to remember someone mentioning they didnt even bother with limit switches because of the firmware limits they set on the clearpath motors... forgive me if I am wrong here but wouldnt this be a non issue if you set the travel limits on the clearpath motors?



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    Default Re: 2nd build - For a friend

    Limit switches are safety devices to protect the machine (and possibly you) when things go wrong.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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