2nd build - For a friend

[WhiteWolf]

Look like some good stuff at reasonable prices. Thanks for the link.

I can tell that when I finally get my MB2, its going to take some time on the benchtop to get it sorted out.

Ref charge pump circuits: I don't understand it to well but your description got me thinking about how my friends router starts up. The UC400ETH has to be powered up before starting the software. If it isnt', the software will start up in demo mode because it doesn't see the motion controller connected. So, as it pertains to charge pump circuits etc., the motion controller will always be on first before the software. I don't think an additional safety circuit is worth implementing. But let me know how you end up integrating yours. I'm curious to see how its supposed to work.

Thanks again guys, I see where I got confused today between the different setups. So Jumper10, the way I understand it now is that the charge pump circuit would be of no use to anyone using cleapaths because the enable signal is essentially the same thing on clearpaths. Only a single external relay is needed for the water pump and the VFD start command can be handled by the MB2 onboard relay?


Is there a reason this setup does not need a brake for the Z axis?

[1Jumper10]

In my opinion the high level feedback can work similarly to the charge pump circuit. The HLFB tells the software everything is OK on the servo. The enable circuit tells the servo's that everything is OK on the software.

1 relay external to the MB2 to run your water pump is all the extra relay's you need.

The Z axis is not heavy enough to backdrive the ballscrew and descend downward if power is removed. No brake is needed to hold it in position.

Also, This might be the source of some of confusion around contactors and servo's: Typical servo's use a driver that mounts in the control cabinet and they send power and direction data down a cable to the servo motor. AC servo's can send 220V down this cable. I understand the need for a safety contactor in this application that would go between the servo driver and the servo motor to cut all power from the driver. And I imagine most instruction manuals for BOB's probably use this typical servo set up as examples of integrating safety circuits, contactors etc. ClearPath servo's are entirely different. The driver is mounted directly to the back of the motor. No way to put a contactor between the driver and the motor. For safety circuit purposes its probably easier to think of it as a glorified stepper motor with an enable circuit. Cut the enable circuit and the drive is entirely disabled.

[ger21]

Thanks again guys, I see where I got confused today between the different setups. So Jumper10, the way I understand it now is that the charge pump circuit would be of no use to anyone using cleapaths because the enable signal is essentially the same thing on clearpaths.

Pretty much all drives have an enable input, from steppers to AC servos, and they all work pretty much the same way. But you're relying on the software to enable or disable your drives. In the unlikely event of a software malfunction, your drives could be enabled when you don't want them. This is unacceptable in an industrial situation, which is why there are safety circuits and contactors to cut power to the drives.

The Charge pump's intent is to really prevent the hardware from doing anything until the software is up and running. This is a far bigger issue with a parallel port, where inputs and outputs can toggle before the software has full control of them.

Typical servo's use a driver that mounts in the control cabinet and they send power and direction data down a cable to the servo motor. AC servo's can send 220V down this cable. I understand the need for a safety contactor in this application that would go between the servo driver and the servo motor to cut all power from the driver.

The contactor NEVER goes between the motor and drive, as switching a motor off will kill the drive.
The contactor goes before the drive, to cut power to the drive. Most AC servos have separate power inputs, for motor power and logic power. By using the contactor for the motor power only, the drives can remain powered during an estop, with only the motor power disabled.

[ger21]

Has anyone bought anything from Factorymation? Some of there stuff is really cheap, but their documentation is a bit thin.
I just bought some terminal blocks from Automation Direct. Their Konnect-It series are a little cheaper, and can be purchased in smaller quantities.
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...erminal_Blocks

[1Jumper10]

Gerry - I've never worked with an AC servo, I just have a general understanding of motors and drives. Is there 2 power inputs to the servo driver? One high voltage and one lower power for the drive electronics? I can see why a safety interrupt would want to cut the high voltage to the motor. It just seems like you would want the driver to stay awake and cutting power before the driver would mean it would have to re-boot when power is turned back on?

Ref relying on software to disable the drives: I agree, not the perfect system. But the E-stop switch is a hardware device and I ran my enable circuit through it. Hitting the E-stop opens the circuit and this disables the drives. Granted, it doesn't cut power to them but I think the combination of the two (E-stop switch -Hardware; Re-set button - software) is reasonably safe.

And I've never ordered from factorymation but I might give them a shot.

[ger21]

Yes, a lot of them have two voltage inputs. DMM's drawing shows the contactor killing power to everything, but it also says it boots up in about 250ms.

I'm going to run into work in a little bit and see if the drives on our big machine stay on during Estop. It's a $150,000 Italian router, with more safety stuff than you can imagine.

I'm machining the side rails of the frame for my router for the linear rails, 10 ft long.

I'm also going to machine an interface plate for the UC30-MB2. I'll post some pics this afternoon.

[ger21]

Here's how I'm mounting the UC300ETH to the MB2. Finally got around to cutting this little plate out.
I may make another one, as this one is not centered on the MB2. I did a quick drawing this morning, and centered the UC300 to the ESS mounting holes. Didn't realize that those are not centered on the MB2.

[WhiteWolf]

Has anyone bought anything from Factorymation? Some of there stuff is really cheap, but their documentation is a bit thin.
I just bought some terminal blocks from Automation Direct. Their Konnect-It series are a little cheaper, and can be purchased in smaller quantities.
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc...erminal_Blocks

Getting ready to order some stuff from them tonight, I decided to go with Altech Terminal Blocks though.... they are extremely small din mount and finger safe. Here is the best price I found on them: CXDB35/10A Altech | Mouser

Pretty much all drives have an enable input, from steppers to AC servos, and they all work pretty much the same way. But you're relying on the software to enable or disable your drives. In the unlikely event of a software malfunction, your drives could be enabled when you don't want them. This is unacceptable in an industrial situation, which is why there are safety circuits and contactors to cut power to the drives.


The Charge pump's intent is to really prevent the hardware from doing anything until the software is up and running. This is a far bigger issue with a parallel port, where inputs and outputs can toggle before the software has full control of them.



The contactor NEVER goes between the motor and drive, as switching a motor off will kill the drive.
The contactor goes before the drive, to cut power to the drive. Most AC servos have separate power inputs, for motor power and logic power. By using the contactor for the motor power only, the drives can remain powered during an estop, with only the motor power disabled.

He wasnt using the charge pump signal with his design. And I will have to look back in the manuals but I am fairly positive that there is a big warning on the Cleapath manual not to kill power for estop, something about it destroying the internals.... The driver is on the motors, kind of difficult when they get their power from the same source.

Here's how I'm mounting the UC300ETH to the MB2. Finally got around to cutting this little plate out.
I may make another one, as this one is not centered on the MB2. I did a quick drawing this morning, and centered the UC300 to the ESS mounting holes. Didn't realize that those are not centered on the MB2.

Looks great, I will be 3d printing a plate tonight, care to share your file

[WhiteWolf]

Anything look wrong with this? Anything you would do differently? I read a lot of conflicting opinions on pulling 120 from 240 any reasons I should not do this and just do all 220?


This is a schematic of my shop and parts I am actually using

[ger21]

I actually ordered some power distribution blocks from them and got them today. Free shipping with $30 was nice. And I got them in two days.


dxf file attached.

[1Jumper10]

Whitewolf - You need a neutral wire to get 110VAC from 220VAC. That would mean a 3-wire-plus-ground wire from your panel to do it right. You can use the ground wire as a neutral but is not allowed by code and its not a good way to do it. Maybe thats your plan and its just not drawn in your drawing for clarity? I ran in to the same problem and didnt convert to 120VAC, just used all 220V components.

And you might not need the breakers in your 5v and 24v power supply circuits. Most of those power supplys are already overload protected. No harm in having them tough.

[ger21]

He's got a neutral on the right side...

[1Jumper10]

I see it now. I was in​ a hurry this morning.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[WhiteWolf]

I actually ordered some power distribution blocks from them and got them today. Free shipping with $30 was nice. And I got them in two days.


dxf file attached.

Thank you, that will save some time

And you might not need the breakers in your 5v and 24v power supply circuits. Most of those power supplys are already overload protected. No harm in having them tough.

I felt the same thing, just seen that some people still fuse those branches. The manuals do not have any requirements for fusing or breaking. The only reason I could think of is the manufacturer might be counting on if they are wired for 120V that they are on a 15 to 20 amp breaker circuit from the panel already not a 30amp.... but the fact they can be wired to 240 30 amp this still might be a non issue?


I am not new to wiring, I have remodeled and rewired most of my house just new to wiring control cabinets. I am one of those types that likes to understand the how and why before doing.... not like some who only like to learn the put this wire here

The biggest thing I am concerned about with this, is the fact that there is so much controversy about splitting 120 from 240 (yes even here on CNCzone). We know that it is done inside sub panels, we know that it is done inside dryers on our homes.... so I do not understand the validity of any the arguments against doing so. We know the load balancing is a best effort, but this is true for any main panel or sub panel of a residential home as well, this is why electric companies have large transformers on the poles to re-balance the load.

I am just wondering if you guys know any concrete reason why I should just say it is not worth it and instead wire the thing to be all 220v.... CNCMan told me I should only have the VFD on 220v, I don't understand thee why here and this is why I have not purchased the required parts yet.

[1Jumper10]

I don't know why. The only thing I can think of is to isolate the rest of the electronics from a potentially noisy VFD. You're using pretty high quality industrial grade components that probably handle interference pretty well. Plus, the UC300ETH or any Ethernet based controller is more noise immune than a parallel port based board. I'm really just speculating here. I personally don't think it's worth the trouble and it's easy enough to find 220v components. YMMV.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[ger21]

I'm not an electronics expert or an electrician, so I'm not really qualified to comment.

[ger21]

I wired up my Huanyang VFD and spindle to the MB2 last night for testing, and found a few things you might want to be aware of.

After about 2 hours, I figured out that my VFD has a defective forward run terminal, as it wouldn't start from UCCNC. The relay on the MB2 was working, but the spindle wouldn't start. While I didn't get to try it with UCCNC, I found that I can use a different terminal.
The Analog speed control (ANA Speed) works well, but there's an issue with the Huanyang VFD. As explained in the MB2 manual, you lose about 0.2V from the input voltage from the VFD to the analog voltage going back. I believe that on a goof VFD, you can compensate for this, but so far, I haven't found out if the Huanyang can do it. I suspect not. The result was that the spindle was running at 373Hz, rather than 400Hz, or about 5% slow. To me, this is not that big of a deal, and I'll live with it if I have to. Especially considering how easy it is to configure. Just connect a couple wires, and enable PWM spindle in UCCNC. I got very good, smooth response from the spindle override slider on my screen. (I'll be using a pot for override on the actual machine)


A bigger issue, is that the spindle starts as soon as the UC300/MB2 is powered up, until UCCNC is running. This is an issue with any outputs, I think. There are a few solutions to this.
Don't power anything else until after UCCNC is up or running. Or, use the charge pump or a similar method to delay power until UCCNC is running. Since I want my VFD to stay on at all times, my plan is to run the Forward Run circuit on the VFD through my safety relay, which will use the charge pump to enable it.

Overall, though, I'm really happy with the MB2. Just plug everything in, and it works. Couldn't be easier.

[1Jumper10]

Thanks Gerry, thats good to know the speed control works well. I wasn't looking forward to using MODBUS. I got my MB2 yesterday, unboxed it and looked it over. It is nicely done but I'm definitely going to have to re-read the manual and wire it up carefully when the time comes.

Ref the spindle starting before UCCNC starts: It does the same thing for me except my spindle doesnt spin. Just my coolant pump starts which tells me the fwd run command is true. I think my spindle doesnt start because I have my minimum allowable speed parameter on the VFD set to about 8000rpm and its not receiving an analog input greater than this when it first powers up. This might be because in UCCNC the minimum spindle speed setting is 6000rpm. I haven't thought about exactly why it doesn't start until your post, but I think this is the reason. Not ideal I know, but its working.

And I also had the same issue with the max speed on my Huanyang VFD on my first router. There is a parameter that sets the input voltage range and adjusted the max voltage value down to what my GECKO 540 could actually output. After that change it would spin up to 400hz. Wish I could remember what that parameter was?? On this machine, the manual was easier to read and I was able to find that parameter and made the same adjustment.

[ger21]

While randomly changing settings, I ran into a situation where the spindle wouldn't start from its run button either. What happened was the VFD was configured for analog speed control, and manual start. Without the spindle on button in UCCNC, the analog voltage was zero, so the spindle would show that it was running, but at 0Hz.
I'll definitely need to play around some more, and take some notes.

[ger21]

And I also had the same issue with the max speed on my Huanyang VFD on my first router. There is a parameter that sets the input voltage range and adjusted the max voltage value down to what my GECKO 540 could actually output. After that change it would spin up to 400hz. Wish I could remember what that parameter was??

I figured out a workaround that seems to work great. I set the VFD to use a 0-5V signal, instead of 0-10V.
Then, in UCCNC, I set the PWM max% to 53%, so that I get 5V from the MB2 analog output, and the full 400Hz.
I didn't have time tonight, but all I need to do is adjust the PWM Min% to get the low end of the rpm's correct.
I'll try to post the video I took tomorrow.