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Thread: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    warrenb:
    I've done that too. I've swapped them around, switches active low settings, tried series and parallel wiring arrangements, the only answer I can think of after all the things I've tried is that somehow I've got extremely bad EMI problems, or the breakout board is bad, which could be true seeing as I think I put 12V through one of the inputs when I first tested one of those proximity switch. I didn't have the resistor that the C25 breakout board manual says to use.

    UPDATE

    I accidentally deleted the good video of the X and Y axes moving, so you'll have to live with this poor example until tomorrow night. Sorry guys.



    Here is another photo of the general machine, yet to get the Z, B, or C axis sorted out. These damn machine shops aren't very snappy around here.


    The wiring of the stepper motor and limit switch ports. Limit switch wiring (top row) are likely to be redone seeing as they don't work at all how they currently are.




    Lots of wires in this machine.


    Machine porn (don't mind the messy wires):


    Another shot of the control panel, I'm quite pleased with it. The e-stop box is extremely solid, I love the feeling. Raise your hand if you hate having to be gentle when rushing for the e-stop.


    Here is a photo of the X axis ballscrew whipping support. The hole that the ballscrew goes through is too sloppy because I was test fitting it on the Z axis ballscrew because that one isn't currently installed, the problem is that the Z axis ballscrew happens to be about 0.6mm bigger. I don't know if 0.6mm oversize is enough to cause them to be completely ineffective, but they are. I even slide them up so the ballscrew is rubbing on them constantly and the ballscrew still builds up a vibration that jams up the entire axis and makes the stepper slip. I can't run it faster than 3700mm/minute, which should be okay for my cutting needs, but the Y axis can do 10,000mm/min, I'd like it if they all matched.
    The white bushings are acetal (Delrin), does anyone have some advice to share on remedying ballscrew whipping issues?





    I'll be sure to shoot a better video tomorrow night showing the X and Y moving more notably. But for now, enjoy!



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianLL View Post
    warrenb:
    I've done that too. I've swapped them around, switches active low settings, tried series and parallel wiring arrangements, the only answer I can think of after all the things I've tried is that somehow I've got extremely bad EMI problems, or the breakout board is bad, which could be true seeing as I think I put 12V through one of the inputs when I first tested one of those proximity switch. I didn't have the resistor that the C25 breakout board manual says to use.

    UPDATE

    I accidentally deleted the good video of the X and Y axes moving, so you'll have to live with this poor example until tomorrow night. Sorry guys.



    Here is another photo of the general machine, yet to get the Z, B, or C axis sorted out. These damn machine shops aren't very snappy around here.


    The wiring of the stepper motor and limit switch ports. Limit switch wiring (top row) are likely to be redone seeing as they don't work at all how they currently are.




    Lots of wires in this machine.


    Machine porn (don't mind the messy wires):


    Another shot of the control panel, I'm quite pleased with it. The e-stop box is extremely solid, I love the feeling. Raise your hand if you hate having to be gentle when rushing for the e-stop.


    Here is a photo of the X axis ballscrew whipping support. The hole that the ballscrew goes through is too sloppy because I was test fitting it on the Z axis ballscrew because that one isn't currently installed, the problem is that the Z axis ballscrew happens to be about 0.6mm bigger. I don't know if 0.6mm oversize is enough to cause them to be completely ineffective, but they are. I even slide them up so the ballscrew is rubbing on them constantly and the ballscrew still builds up a vibration that jams up the entire axis and makes the stepper slip. I can't run it faster than 3700mm/minute, which should be okay for my cutting needs, but the Y axis can do 10,000mm/min, I'd like it if they all matched.
    The white bushings are acetal (Delrin), does anyone have some advice to share on remedying ballscrew whipping issues?





    I'll be sure to shoot a better video tomorrow night showing the X and Y moving more notably. But for now, enjoy!
    Nice build, What effect is the support having, better or worse on or off? Could your ballnut be out of alignment? There's some pretty good guides around on the net to align these, it involves attaching a dti to the nut measuring the screw infront and behind. I had simiular issues with a 1500mm sfu screw except i have a nema34 and it didnt just jam it spat shattered balls out :S, no supports though. I made up a plate the nut support bolted to and made that plate adjustatable which allowed for better alignment and problem went away at the expense of a new nut obviously. Bearing in mind you will likely only get 4-4.5m/min from a 5mm pitch sfu screw that long

    Last edited by Jon.N.CNC; 06-10-2016 at 12:39 PM.


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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    I doubt it's EMI. It would take out everything. Are there any other virgin IOs you can move the physical wires to on the BOB? When you swapped it did you physically move the wires to the X limit switches or all they all daisy chained on a single limit switch? Does each axis have it's own limit switch? I would swap out the BOB. If you're worried about EMI move the stepper drivers away from the BOB but I really don't think that's it.

    A few observations...

    You whipping is because that Delrin nut on the gantry is WAY too small. You are trying to contain all those forces with two small allen screws and being slotted another half of the structure is removed for the slots. Build a mount that contains the entire nut and screw it in to the steel structure. Put the slots in the steel for adjusting. I suggest an off the shelf anti-backlash but.
    5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"-nut-jpg

    I would be concerned with racking on the top linear bearing because the drive screw is so far away and you only have one linear bearing on the top and the bottom. If there is any load the steel strap will flex and potentially jam the top linear bearing.
    5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"-gantry-jpg
    One thing you should add on the Z axis is an air cylinder that will take the load off the Z drive. You need to take the weight of the spindle out of the mounting plate and a constant pressure in a cylinder will act as a counter weight. I have first hand experience with this on other machines I've repaired where the z axis stepper will skip but there is no feed back to tell the control it is out of position.
    5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"-z-axis-jpg



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    warrenB:
    I have indeed physically moved different switches to different input pins. I'm not totally sure if I've tested on virgin input pins, I don't feel like that will work, because even inputs that didn't cop a 12V beating behave the same.
    Limit switches include:

    • X-- and Home
    • X++
    • YL-- and Home
    • YL++
    • YR-- and Home
    • Z++ and Home


    There might be more inputs later for an automatic rotary zeroing setup, but that's a bit further down the track if I even feel it's worth it.
    As for you suggestion on the Delrin nut - that's not a nut, that's just a through hole that is supposed to hold the ballscrew stiffer to prevent it wobbling around at speed. The steel strap it's attached to isn't driven by the ballscrew directly, they just move out of the way when the X axis carriage hits it. You'll see what I mean towards the end of the video. I still have to attach magnets on the X axis carriage and these floating ballscrew supports so they return when the X carriage goes back in the other direction. Right now they just stay where they were last pushed to.




    I agree with you about adding an air cylinder to the Z axis, I've got a pretty torquey setup for the Z axis, so I hope it isn't required. The stepper is 1200oz-in NEMA34, with the same 5mm pitch ballscrew, so there's a pretty big force multiplier from the ballscrew on top of the already decent motor. However, even still, adding a cylinder will reduce wear on the ballscrew. That's a possible upgrade down the road.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    AH! I see what the steel strapped delrin clad unit was. I thought that was your drive nut. I've never seen anything like that. It's very clever. Well done.

    I'm not sure how much an air cylinder is at your end but for $50usd it's a pretty small investment for a counterweight. My buddy has a router with high torque motors and the thing will skip a step or two every so often. I put on a cheapo cylinder and no more problems.

    As for your break out board. All I can think is to isolate it way away from your amps to verify there is no noise. If you have an AC amp-meter (the kind that clamps around an AC wire) you can just run your motors and wave that amp-meter around and see if it is measuring amps. That'll give you an idea if EM is occuring. Without swapping the breakout board though, kind of tough to say.

    Good luck. Thanks for sharing your build. It is very impressive.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    Hey man, you've really got a nice build going there! You're very talented. My hat is off to you sir!



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    I know the cost is much higher that what you planned, but as long as your frame is reasonably stiff, you will notice a substantial difference in rigidity with better linear rails. I sold my ebay rails and bought some used thk rails once I measured the deformation under load, and found it to be much higher than I planned. It really made a huge difference for me. I am interested to see how the 4th and 5th axis works out for you, it looks pretty solid.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    warrenb:
    Thank you, I first planned on making the supports a swing arm type of thing that moves out of the way as the ballnut comes past and a spring pulls it back in place, but there was no neat way to support it thoroughly and from the most important angle - underneath. So this was my adaptation after seeing how Fagor supported ballscrews do it.

    I think pneumatic cylinders are about the same price around here. But I also have the issue of fitting it under my roof. The Z stepper motor is just centimeters from touching the roof where I intend to place the machine.

    I when I decide to give a crap about the limit switches again, I might try cutting all power to the stepper motors and see if anything changes, unfortunately I don't have high expectations.

    Thanks again for the kind words man, it feels good having people who know what they're talking about say my work is impressive.

    1jumper10:
    Thank you very much!

    dbsharp:
    You're exactly right. The linear rails are probably the weakest link of the machine. When I bought them the budget was much lower, but after I blew the budget so quickly, the situation was reevaluated. I've considered changing out the linear rails, but I'll save my money for now and hope for the best. If it's ever absolutely necessary, I'll redo a number of things, primarily relating to the linear bearings interestingly enough.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianLL View Post
    warrenb:
    Thank you, I first planned on making the supports a swing arm type of thing that moves out of the way as the ballnut comes past and a spring pulls it back in place, but there was no neat way to support it thoroughly and from the most important angle - underneath. So this was my adaptation after seeing how Fagor supported ballscrews do it.

    I think pneumatic cylinders are about the same price around here. But I also have the issue of fitting it under my roof. The Z stepper motor is just centimeters from touching the roof where I intend to place the machine.

    I when I decide to give a crap about the limit switches again, I might try cutting all power to the stepper motors and see if anything changes, unfortunately I don't have high expectations.

    Thanks again for the kind words man, it feels good having people who know what they're talking about say my work is impressive.

    1jumper10:
    Thank you very much!

    dbsharp:
    You're exactly right. The linear rails are probably the weakest link of the machine. When I bought them the budget was much lower, but after I blew the budget so quickly, the situation was reevaluated. I've considered changing out the linear rails, but I'll save my money for now and hope for the best. If it's ever absolutely necessary, I'll redo a number of things, primarily relating to the linear bearings interestingly enough.
    A nema 34 will lift 60-100kg on a 5mm pitch ball screw depending on model of motor, why do you need an air cylinder?.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    A nema 34 will lift 60-100kg on a 5mm pitch ball screw depending on model of motor, why do you need an air cylinder?.
    Because everyone is doing it, instaed of being smart about it and just getting a motor with an intergral brake($30 more), they figure it is cheaper to add a cylinder and brackets.

    His Z axis will weigh at a maximum 30kgs?????

    Also the 60-100 kgs is via direct coupling. So plenty of potential here with that size motor.



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    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    Because everyone is doing it, instaed of being smart about it and just getting a motor with an intergral brake($30 more), they figure it is cheaper to add a cylinder and brackets.

    His Z axis will weigh at a maximum 30kgs?????

    Also the 60-100 kgs is via direct coupling. So plenty of potential here with that size motor.
    I am not going to pretend like I know whether I do or don't need one, but I've seen a number of very high end commercial gantry machines like DMS and H&H use cylinders on their Z axes.

    A cylinder handles most of the gravity load so the ballscrew just takes acceleration forces. This would reduce wear and make it easier for the Z to accelerate in the upwards direction.

    Of course, different designs will have varying results.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianLL View Post
    I am not going to pretend like I know whether I do or don't need one, but I've seen a number of very high end commercial gantry machines like DMS and H&H use cylinders on their Z axes.

    A cylinder handles most of the gravity load so the ballscrew just takes acceleration forces. This would reduce wear and make it easier for the Z to accelerate in the upwards direction.

    Of course, different designs will have varying results.
    The cylinder will apply its own resistance and with just 30kg on there, I doubt you would gain anything. And it won't drop when off not on a 5mm pitch screw.

    Money better spent would be on a planatary box, you gain accuracy and holding torque both on and off.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    But when I get to it, I'll put all the switches on either the 72V or the 48V supply that also runs the stepper motors. That high voltage circuit will switch relays in the control box that that activate the 5V input signals to the breakout board.
    72V or even 48V is a bit too high, in my opinion. Typically 24VDC is used for this purpose (limit switches, buttons, lights, relays, pneumatic valves and so on) in industrial machines.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    I am not going to pretend like I know whether I do or don't need one, but I've seen a number of very high end commercial gantry machines like DMS and H&H use cylinders on their Z axes.
    Christian, your comparing a commercial unit to a home made jobbie. The commercial unit has a Z axis mount that weighs 4 or 5x what yours does if not more. Case in point Okuma Genos has a head weighing in at 193kgs and it has no air assist cylinder or counterweight mechanism.
    A 1605 rolled ballscrew can handle well over 1200kgs of dynamic loads on it and over 1800kgs when under static load. Totally unnecesary. Save your money and stop following blindly what everyone else is suggesting. Think a little further then what they have.
    If it's really all about wear, then consider the axial forces that are present to get your table and workpiece moving. They are also huge, until you get the table up to speed. Thinking your way now means they should also be air assited. Because the moment of inertia to stop or move the load is also great which would wear the ballscrew unevenly.

    The real reason for counterweights and air assisted Z axis, was to eleviate the problem of having to fit or use larger motors. This is not your case. You have 2-3 times the necessary torque required for your Z.

    These are basic mechanical engineering requirements that can be easily calculated online.

    As to your concern for wear, again your listening to people that know little about metallurgy and tempering of steels and their actual purpose. Your whole machine will be scrapped before you ever wear out the Z axis ballscrew provided it receives appropriate lubrication at regular intervals. The balls in the ballnut wear the oil film out and not the ballscrew. No lube = wear on the screw and ballnut. Proper lube = wearing out the oil(which is regularly replenished ). Just like the crank journals or a crankpin. The connecting rod bearing shells rides on an oil film between it and the crank pin(journal).

    Does any of this make sense to anyone here??? Or no one can be taught anything here because you all know better????



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    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenOfDreams View Post
    72V or even 48V is a bit too high, in my opinion. Typically 24VDC is used for this purpose (limit switches, buttons, lights, relays, pneumatic valves and so on) in industrial machines.
    Don't know what you would gain over 12v-24v, except running more volts you would most likely running higher amps too? And doesn't that produce more eddy currents so you will just end up with more noise in the grounding circuit than you would otherwise have had with 12-24v. So Counter productive really.



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    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    Christian, your comparing a commercial unit to a home made jobbie. The commercial unit has a Z axis mount that weighs 4 or 5x what yours does if not more. Case in point Okuma Genos has a head weighing in at 193kgs and it has no air assist cylinder or counterweight mechanism.
    A 1605 rolled ballscrew can handle well over 1200kgs of dynamic loads on it and over 1800kgs when under static load. Totally unnecesary. Save your money and stop following blindly what everyone else is suggesting. Think a little further then what they have.
    If it's really all about wear, then consider the axial forces that are present to get your table and workpiece moving. They are also huge, until you get the table up to speed. Thinking your way now means they should also be air assited. Because the moment of inertia to stop or move the load is also great which would wear the ballscrew unevenly.

    The real reason for counterweights and air assisted Z axis, was to eleviate the problem of having to fit or use larger motors. This is not your case. You have 2-3 times the necessary torque required for your Z.

    These are basic mechanical engineering requirements that can be easily calculated online.

    As to your concern for wear, again your listening to people that know little about metallurgy and tempering of steels and their actual purpose. Your whole machine will be scrapped before you ever wear out the Z axis ballscrew provided it receives appropriate lubrication at regular intervals. The balls in the ballnut wear the oil film out and not the ballscrew. No lube = wear on the screw and ballnut. Proper lube = wearing out the oil(which is regularly replenished ). Just like the crank journals or a crankpin. The connecting rod bearing shells rides on an oil film between it and the crank pin(journal).

    Does any of this make sense to anyone here??? Or no one can be taught anything here because you all know better????
    Agreed they are a fix more than upgrade.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    Christian, your comparing a commercial unit to a home made jobbie. The commercial unit has a Z axis mount that weighs 4 or 5x what yours does if not more. Case in point Okuma Genos has a head weighing in at 193kgs and it has no air assist cylinder or counterweight mechanism.
    A 1605 rolled ballscrew can handle well over 1200kgs of dynamic loads on it and over 1800kgs when under static load. Totally unnecesary. Save your money and stop following blindly what everyone else is suggesting. Think a little further then what they have.
    If it's really all about wear, then consider the axial forces that are present to get your table and workpiece moving. They are also huge, until you get the table up to speed. Thinking your way now means they should also be air assited. Because the moment of inertia to stop or move the load is also great which would wear the ballscrew unevenly.

    The real reason for counterweights and air assisted Z axis, was to eleviate the problem of having to fit or use larger motors. This is not your case. You have 2-3 times the necessary torque required for your Z.

    These are basic mechanical engineering requirements that can be easily calculated online.

    As to your concern for wear, again your listening to people that know little about metallurgy and tempering of steels and their actual purpose. Your whole machine will be scrapped before you ever wear out the Z axis ballscrew provided it receives appropriate lubrication at regular intervals. The balls in the ballnut wear the oil film out and not the ballscrew. No lube = wear on the screw and ballnut. Proper lube = wearing out the oil(which is regularly replenished ). Just like the crank journals or a crankpin. The connecting rod bearing shells rides on an oil film between it and the crank pin(journal).

    Does any of this make sense to anyone here??? Or no one can be taught anything here because you all know better????
    While I agree mostly here, I fail to see how this snarky attitude can be productive.

    First of all, this is a Chinese unbranded ball screw and ball nut. I doubt the static and dynamic load are anywhere near that of a branded ball screw and ball nut assembly. But yes, likely sufficient for the job at hand. Again, they're suggestions, and nothing's set in stone yet, so no harm done.

    That said, I postulate that the stepper motor chosen for the Z is complete overkill, and likely will lead to poor higher speed performance, which is needed for 3D contouring of engineering composites. Not to mention "cogging" issues which may telegraph onto the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon.N.CNC
    The cylinder will apply its own resistance and with just 30kg on there, I doubt you would gain anything. And it won't drop when off not on a 5mm pitch screw.

    Money better spent would be on a planatary box, you gain accuracy and holding torque both on and off.
    A 5mm pitch ball screw could potentially backdrive. I would think these SBR type rails and blocks have less rolling resistance than profile rails with seals. A simple relay that shorts one of the motor windings when the drive is off should suffice. A motor brake is another, more expensive option.

    A planetary gearhead would make the Z axis even more painfully slow. You can add resolution, but that doesn't necessarily translate into accuracy. Unless you find a gearbox that has a rated accuracy of less than 1 arc-min, and they are all servo-grade and extremely expensive. Plus it would add height to the Z carriage (though a smaller motor could be used.) Most stepper-grade planetary gearheads are rated to 5-15 arc-min accuracy. Great idea for servos, not so good for steppers, unless it's a rotary axis possibly.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    Quote Originally Posted by ChristianLL View Post
    As for you suggestion on the Delrin nut - that's not a nut, that's just a through hole that is supposed to hold the ballscrew stiffer to prevent it wobbling around at speed. The steel strap it's attached to isn't driven by the ballscrew directly, they just move out of the way when the X axis carriage hits it. You'll see what I mean towards the end of the video. I still have to attach magnets on the X axis carriage and these floating ballscrew supports so they return when the X carriage goes back in the other direction. Right now they just stay where they were last pushed to.
    You machine is looking great! An idea for the ball screw support: You can make another one for the other side, then make or repurpose some scissor mechanisms, this way each ball screw support will be automatically centered. Though I feel 16mm may be a tad small for your axis length. Another way, possibly, would be to machine the non-driven end to accept a fixed-end bearing block, and use Belleville washers to keep the screw under tension while still allowing for thermal expansion.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    While I agree mostly here, I fail to see how this snarky attitude can be productive.

    First of all, this is a Chinese unbranded ball screw and ball nut. I doubt the static and dynamic load are anywhere near that of a branded ball screw and ball nut assembly. But yes, likely sufficient for the job at hand. Again, they're suggestions, and nothing's set in stone yet, so no harm done.


    No attitude. Trying to get through the layers.
    The numbers I posted for the ballscrew dynamic and static loads were derated by 30% over a similar sized Hiwin ballscrew. If unbranded, even at 50% derate you have loads of room to spare.

    I guess facts laid out = attitude. Just trying to save the guy unnecessary work and money.

    The relay idea would work great and is much cheaper and easier to implement.



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    Default Re: 5 Axis CNC Plastic Cutting Router "The CutaRouterer"

    Quote Originally Posted by G59 View Post
    No attitude. Trying to get through the layers.
    The numbers I posted for the ballscrew dynamic and static loads were derated by 30% over a similar sized Hiwin ballscrew. If unbranded, even at 50% derate you have loads of room to spare.

    I guess facts laid out = attitude. Just trying to save the guy unnecessary work and money.

    The relay idea would work great and is much cheaper and easier to implement.
    And doesn't add any extra height to the machine...

    This remark:
    Quote Originally Posted by G59
    Does any of this make sense to anyone here??? Or no one can be taught anything here because you all know better????
    While I highly respect your input and knowledge, I thought previous posts may have taught you! As others may have overseen things that may be quite obvious to you?



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