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Thread: Buying a Swiss!

  1. #1
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    Default Buying a Swiss!

    Hello all!

    First and foremost, the TLDR version:

    1. Is there any drawback on using an oversized Swiss machine for tiny parts
    2. Where are some good place to look for used Swiss lathes, any year/model I should avoid, etc.
    3. Differences between Citizen A32/L32/M32

    Secondly some background if you are interested: I have zero experience in Swiss machines, but had cut my teeth on vertical CNC mills and have been mostly a self-taught type of guy. (It's kind'a strange, I have an business/accounting/economic degree, worked accounting for a few years, then I went to IT... and taught myself software development and database architecturing. Now I am programming CNC mills in my own buisness. lol) FYI, we bought our first CNC mill to build prototypes, and some products ended up selling so we are now using them to make small runs. The loan on our mill is closed to paid for, and I am toying with the idea of buying a Swiss machine next.

    I already have some parts I plan to develop / cut using the new machine, and are all over the place... from tiny "wedges" that are almost impossible to hold in vertical mills, to something akin to profiling a 20" gun barrel (it's not actually for a gun). There might also be some 3D contoured parts that we currently cannot cut in our 3-axis mill, which I think a Swiss can do some of these better than even a 5-axis VMC.

    From my research, I will need a 32mm-class machine (e.g. Citizen A/M/L32) to cut the biggest parts I intended, but what I do not know is, is there any drawback from running small parts in a oversized machine? If I need to run 1/4" bar stock on a 32-class machine, is it just as simple as changing out the guide bushing etc.?

    Also, what are some good places to shop for used machine - I doubt we can afford a new one, especially not when it will most likely sit idle for more than half the time. We would turn on the machines when we get an order, make chips, turn the mill off, assemble the products, ship, and wait for the next order. Yes we could've find a job shop but sometimes we run as little as 5 parts at a time (nobody will take that job) and the sales guy will want it done yesterday (no shops I talked to doesn't have a 3-week scheduling time). Which is why we ended up making them in-house most of the time.

    Lastly, from what I've read (here and elsewhere) Citizen and Stars both make good machines? I've found many used Citizen 32mm machines available, I have a general idea what the differences are but if the experts can chime in about the major differences between A32 vs L32 vs M32 (or comparable Star machines) that would be much appreciated.

    Oh and if anyone here by chance is selling one... let me know. :-p

    Thanks in advance!



    Wallace

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    My shop just bought our 1st swiss machine lasst year. We bought a brand new L20 XII with a b axis. I am the sole person that programs and runs it. Swiss is it's own type of animal. It programs different than any other machine. We loked at both Citizen and Star and we went with Citizen because we felt our local distributer would offer better support. The fact that it sounds like you want to do complex milling so you will probably want a b axis which is a fairly new thing on a swiss so you will probably have to look at new machines. Our l20 was about $250,000 and a 32 is about $300,000. And with a new machine you get free training and you will need it. You will both love and loathe a swiss...lol It takes a bit to get used to working in such a small area.



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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    We got in to swiss near the end of 2010, and as Jreynolds5 states, it is its own type of animal! We have Citizens and 1 Tsugami on our floor. I have no experience with Star, or any of the others out there. Having said that, we have not bought a new Citizen yet, and the support we have received has been second to none! We bought the Tsugami B0326 new, 2 years ago, loaded with extra optional live tools, a long parts catcher, a part conveyor, chip conveyor, HP coolant, and a magazine barfeed. All packaged together, ran us about $285,000 - OUCH!!! While I will not go into details here, as to our experience with the Tsugami, lets just say that the service and support from them has not even come close to Citizen's support.

    While I agree with jreynolds5 that a machine with a B-axis would possibly help with some surfacing, as the machine becomes essentially a full 5-axis capable mill, new will probably be out of the budget, given your description of usage. Now, I don't know what your parts look like that you will need milling capabilities on, but you have to remember, this IS NOT a 30 or 40 taper VMC. They will do some really cool things, but you cannot run 12000 rpm and 350ipm. It's not going to happen, or at least, not for very long. On the lines of surfacing, I am not sure what you are currently using for CAD/CAM software, but the swiss will require a CAD/CAM software capable of posting code for swiss machines. There may be more, but the ones I know about are Partmaker, Esprit CAM, and Mastercam Swiss Expert. Any of which will add approximately $15,000-25,000 to what you are looking at for the machine itself. Unless you currently have Mastercam, then it may just be an add-on, I don't know. We currently use Partmaker. Basic parts with turning, light milling of flats, cross drilling/tapping, end off-center drilling/tapping, can be programmed by hand with minimal difficulty, especially on the Citizen.

    From my understanding, the A32 is their bargain-basement-level machine. It is purely a gang type machine. Great for quick production of simple parts requiring some milling/drilling. Pretty much, any tool holders that are possible, ship with the machine unless you are looking at live endworking or thread whirling. These typically come with a Fanuc control.

    The L20 is Citizen's most popular machine with more capabilities than the A, but less than the M, with the L32 being an extension of that. Still, a purely gang type machine with more sophistication. There are more different types of live and static tool holder setups available for this machine than the A, hence the extra capabilities. There were a number of years the L32 was not made, for some reason, so in looking at that particular model, you are going to be looking at a 10-15 year old machine, or a 1-2 year old machine. Both the A32 and the L32 are 2-line machines, meaning 1 program to run the main, and 1 program to run the sub-spindle. This is highly over-simplified, of course, but it gives you an idea. These typically have a Mitsubishi control.

    The M is their current flagship machine with the most capabilities. This is also a gang type machine, but with the addition of a turret, and with the turret, a 3rd program to run it. Again, an over simplification. The turret adds virtually unlimited versatility, aside from a B-axis. Where a turning tool resides today, a live tool may sit tomorrow, and a drill could be there the next day. In its basic form, the turret is 10 stations, holding tools to machine both on the main and the sub. With some specific tool holders, utilizing either half index, or Y-axis, multiple tools can be held per station, turning the turret into a tool holder paradise or nightmare, depending on how you look at it. The turret also provides the ability to pinch turn, which can be very helpful in a 32MM machine if you are turning, for example, a 1 inch bar, down to 1/4 inch. Especially if the length of that 1/4 inch diameter exceeded the length of the guide bushing. Being the flagship, it carries the flagship price. 2 years ago, we priced an M20 and the quote I had with a barfeed, HP coolant, chip conveyor, and basic tool package was approximately $347,000. You can expect the M32 to be more. And if you want to do any machining with the turret, each holder, new, runs from about $750 for a static holder to $6000+ for a live holder. So that can add up fast. We currently have 2 older M12 machines, and love them. M32's typically come used in the type III and type V variants. The main difference being the type V has Y-axis on the turret. There are occasionally some type VII and VIII M's out there, but they are newer and thus, more expensive.

    The predecessor to the the M is the E. The E32 is a twin turret machine with 3 line programming, like the M32. The E32, though, is not as fast as the M32, as it is older and turrets are slower tool to tool and chip to chip than a gang plate. Slower, though, is relative. If you need speed for high volume production, you have to bite the bullet and buy an M32. If you need speed to keep your pricing in line with what the customer needs, consider this: M32 new at approximately $375-400K. E32 used at $25-40K. E32 type IV (y-axis on 1 turret) used at $35-70K There are used M32's out there currently at around $80-100K, for a year 2000 to 2002 machine. Still not a bad deal. Just a matter of what you want to do and what you want/can spend. Also, keep in mind that an older machine may be prone to age-related repairs. We bought an E25J at around 15 years old, and proceeded to dump close to $25K into it in servo drives over the following 6 to 8 months. We currently have 2 E32 and 1 E25J machines on the floor and they are great, albeit slow, machines.

    As far as running tiny parts in a large machine... yes, it can be done. We do it all the time. It is certainly not as efficient as running them in a smaller machine since spindle speeds are not as fast, but it will physically make them. We regularly run 1/8" stock in our E25J. The parts end up being a 2-56/4-40 threaded socket set screw. For reference, a 2-56 set screw is 0.084" in diameter. We've run as small as 1/4" stock in our E32 and it handled it like a champ. The key is, make sure the machine you buy has the spindle sync option turned on. Most swiss do, but one of our E32's came in without it enabled. Spindle sync forces the sub to follow the main rpm for rpm and is necessary to keep small parts from just twisting off due to the differential between rpm on the main and sub when supporting or parting.

    I am rambling, I know. Just trying to give you some things to think about. It really depends on the types and variations of parts you want to do. How much flexibility do you need? Do some youtubing of the different machines to see them in operation.



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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    I have no complaints about service. I can call our rep anytime with a question. We also get free training for the life of the machine. If I have an issue and the machine is down they do whatever they can to get someone here right away and our salesman stops buy regularly when he is in the area to see how we are doing.



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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    Also another thing to remember too is you have to use at the least what they call swiss ready stock. Which of course is more expensive than standard stock. YOu material has to be of tight tolerance in order to run correctly in a swiss. Diameter should be +/-.001 or better and straighness at at least a thousanths or two a foot. That is the problem we are having right now is that our materials guy didn't specify swiss ready material and I have a bunch of work to do but no material to do it because we had to send it out to be straghtened.



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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    +1

    Straight, accurate barstock is a must. We typically run ground and polished stock with a tolerance of +/-0.0005" on the diameter. We used to run lots of cold finished stock and, while it works for some things, we learned the hard way that when it gets stuck in the guide bushing, the cost of the tooling we lost was more than the cost difference of the material. And with swiss, if the bar is bent and you are running your 20" parts you mentioned, your part will be bent, just like the bar! That is assuming your small, 1/8" stock doesn't turn into a pretzel in the barfeed, (been there, done that)! You can get away with a slight bow if your parts are short, but when they are long, straight stock counts.



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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    Hello everyone,

    Firstly thank you for the comments so far! They've been extremely helpful.

    I've been reading up some more in the last 24 hours, and the old saying of "the more you learn, the less you know" is definitely applying here... Every time I read something new, 5 more questions would surface. But with all your help, slowly and surely I will get there!

    So at this point I picked up a few more things I need to consider. Firstly is CAM; I am using Fusion 360 ($1,500 per year license which includes CAM is pretty attractive) but I did find out they do not have any build-in post-processor for Swiss lathes. Their forum is very active though, and someone did wrote a POST for their Citizen but I have not tried it. Not even sure if it has the ability to "segment" turning length so the parts won't fall out of the guide bushing... something to look into. The main issue is, since I plan to use this machine in the same way as our old 3-axis mill (50% prototyping, 50% small runs), a integrated CAM will be crucial, partially due to my workflow: A lot of time I will run a prototype, test it, make minor changes in the model, and let the software automatically update tool-path so I can immediately cut a new version while the machine is still setup. This is something I enjoy very much on the Fusion 360. I suspect standalone CAM programs will not be as streamlined? For example, if I have a complex part that requires a dozen procedures using 6 or 7 different tools, and let's say I "lengthen" one section of it in the 3D model. Currently in Fusion 360, all I have to do is go back into CAM mode, hit Ctrl-G to recalculate tool paths automatically, then export the G-code, go to the mill, insert new stock, and hit run. It is extremely fast. Can I do something similar with a Swiss-compatible CAM program? Or, since the model is now different, I have to start completely from scratch and re-setup every procedure before I can cut the revised prototype?

    I guess if I have to look at the bright side, since I have no prior lathe programming experience, the way Swiss programs differently (or that Citizen also programs differently from other Swiss because the main spindle is on the right) wouldn't bother me. :-p

    Also, on that subject, does anyone know starting what year Citizen controls support file access via Ethernet network? It's a minor convenience but I love the ability to save updated G-Code to the network, walk to the machine, and be able to open it without having to bring a memory card or USB drive.

    Last decision, I guess, is whether we should look at a older M32 or a newer A/L32... I have a feeling it will be a while before we really need a turret, and as much as I said B axis would be fun, I don't have any products in the pipeline that will need it (nor have I even explored how I would program for it). So, perhaps an A32 will be enough for us, and getting a newer one (to avoid maintenance issues) may be better place to spend the money.

    Oh choices choices....



    Wallace



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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    Oh on a different note, I've read somewhere that as long as you OWN a Citizen (even if bought used), you get free training directly from Citizen... is that true?



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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    I have definately learned a lot in the past 6 months...lol As far as CAD/CAM goes I beilieve that most have an automatic regenirate function after making minor changed to the model. We have gibbs here but we do not have a post for our swiss yet. I don't know why...lol but on the few occasions I have needed to post I have just used generic posts to just get the numbers.....and I have only done it for lathe operations. And as far as programming a b axis.....at least for straight forward angled drilling and milling....its as easy as calling your angle and moving to a start position and setting a g50 zero shift and making your feed moovements. I drill a lot of angled holles with small counterbores and I can program 5 holes with counterbores in under 2 mins at the controller. Also start looking at tooling.....that is another type of animal with swiss as well.



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    Default Re: Buying a Swiss!

    Update!! Decided on an M32... she's old (like 20 years old) but looks to be in good shape. The drip pan has some oil in it though, but every Citizen in that shop has a pan, and every pan was wet. I assume that's common on a Swiss?

    So... next question is where to find tool holders. This machine comes with practically zero live tools (besides the standard ones on the gang), and as you guys said live tools are $$$$. The shop owner is "throwing in" a few OD and drill holders for the turret but is keeping everything for the next machine. I suppose that's common practice for shops that are upgrading... so my challenge now is try not to spend $30k just for turret tool holders. Suggestions?



    Wallace



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