to buy or not to buy

[Cartel, LLC]

looking for some input here... i am working on a PO for a company that would require me to purchase a swiss machine or a hydramat (which is waaaaay outta my price range). the part is fairly complex as it has internal knurling and some outer barbs. 304 SS, .370" in diameter, .763" long. 2 million pieces a year. so, ive looked into citizen and am working with a salesman/engineer at one of their offices and he informed me after looking at my print that it would take about 20 seconds to run each part and after material i net about $.11 per part or $19.80 per hour.

so, he suggested that i pass on the job and look for a better paying job as this isnt a winner perse. however, i almost think it is only because a swiss lathe will run when im not at my shop so that would help right? they have a used machine that i was quasi interested in that is an '07 k16 for $100k. but i half thought about buying 2 older used machines and even if they run a little slower the two may get the job done quicker. say like (2) '97 era machine for $40k each. so, now im into it for $80k and i have 2 machines that may not have all the bells and whistles but can ultimately accomplish the overall job quicker.

let me know what you think.

[CitizenBrian]

That's a tough one. First thing I would say is don't plan on a run time a sales man gives you. As for the old machines, we have an old Citizen L16 that never gets used cause when we look at a job to put in it we always come to the same conclusion - it will run faster and better in one of our newer L20's. Instead of planning on buying this machine for this one large job look at other jobs in your shop that could be manufactured in this machine at less cost to you. We have taken many jobs from our lathe and mill departments that took multiple operations to complete and now it's done in one op, which means less set-ups and less handling of the part. And for ghosting it comes down to the job, we have jobs that run overnight and other jobs we can only get a handful of parts. My question to you is, do you guys have any experience with Swiss screw machines? If not there is going to be a learning curve. So I say, A: go for the new machine and, B: get a machine that will run this large job but also help improve other jobs in the shop.

Brian

[underthetire]

Is that 19.80 per hour including coolant/tooling/power/air, or subtracting that. Could the part be run on something like a gang tool lathe, where your investment would be much much cheaper?

[Cartel, LLC]

i have no experience with a swiss machine. trust me... im not naive. i am certain of a learning curve. hopefully not a year though! lol. as far as other work in the shop, i dont have any that we could justify buying a swiss for. although i have been wanting to add a turning center for some time now and i have routinely turned down work because i dont have a turning center. then i ran across this project and thought that after a year it would pay for the machine in a sense.

thats $19.80 per hour after material. from that comes your rent, electric, insurance etc... im pretty good at the numbers thing and my shop costs me about twice that per employee per hour based on a 40 hour week. if that number goes up than that number comes down because its an average. now, obviously if you work 60 hours a week than your tangible costs go up like electric, gas, tooling etc... i realize that but the overall per hour goes down in a sense. make sense?

all in all im just looking for a way to get into more automated schtuff and thought this might be a good one to do. maybe not though?

[Cartel, LLC]

hey brian! you wanna sell your L16? haha!

i dont know about a gang lathe type deal. ill look into that.

[CitizenBrian]

Funny you ask, it is for sale. Don't quote me but I think they want $5000.00 It's a 16mm max capacity hence the name L16 with bar feeder. Most likely not able to do the part you speak of but may be a cheap way to get in to Swiss.

[raynjer]

Cartel - one of the things you need to be sure about is the total costs of that machine you are contemplating. Send me an email to machines@jdltech.ca and I'll share a burden rate calculator with you to help you determine what your costs to run are.
This may help you decide which way to go.

[SirDenisNayland]

I really wouldn't count on 20 seconds a piece

[micky316]

I love the times they quote ,it does come off in that time on the demo normally, but doesnt last in the real World its always way slower

[MikeMc]

I really wouldn't count on 20 seconds a piece

I was thinking the same thing, you will eat most of the 20 seconds up cutting off a piece of .370 304.

[MCImes]

I was thinking the same thing, you will eat most of the 20 seconds up cutting off a piece of .370 304.

+1

on a simple face, chamfer, cutoff (.250" 303) part Ive gotten the cycle down to 11 seconds so if you're doing turning and knurling id be amazed to see a 20 sec cycle

[greyghost34]

Excuse me for butting in but if you need 2 million parts per year and it takes an optimistic 20 seconds per part that is over 11000 hours per year. You haven't even started yet and you're already behind schedule.
Ken

[gizmo_454]

My turn...

Can somebody say MULTIPLE SPINDLE?

I have to agree, the 20 seconds is extremely aggressive to say the least. We are making nuts right now on our E32 from round stock. Nothing difficult by any means:

Face/Chamfer
Spot
Drill
Tap
Re-Spot
Mill Hex
Chamfer/Pick off

Face back and spot back in sub is overlap time.

Time per piece is roughly 90 seconds. Granted, our machine is not the speed demon that the gang slide machines are because we have to index the turrets. Even then, in our Brown&Sharpe screw machines, we couldn't make the same part much faster than 40 to 45 seconds. And that is with 1/2 second indexes and 1/2 second feed outs.

I would probably pass on that job. Or, perhaps, sub it out if you know a good multi spindle shop in your area.

Best of luck!
Mike

[statescrew]

I agree with Gizmo...a good multible shop , if capable , can turn it out faster if not too complex. I don"t see a swiss going any faster than 11 sec per cycle no matter what material. Just one of the drawbacks of a swiss. Can do alot for sure but they do have there limits like any machine. Ex: cutoff = 4.8sec, reset,restart= 3.0 sec. your at 8 sec before you start making a part.

[SirDenisNayland]

I agree with Gizmo...a good multible shop , if capable , can turn it out faster if not too complex. I don"t see a swiss going any faster than 11 sec per cycle no matter what material. Just one of the drawbacks of a swiss. Can do alot for sure but they do have there limits like any machine. Ex: cutoff = 4.8sec, reset,restart= 3.0 sec. your at 8 sec before you start making a part.

You just have to trick the machine.. or rather know your machine very very well. I make a simple plastic ring, .248 od, .07 id, .100~ width. spot, drill, turn, chamfer edges and cutoff in under 6 seconds.. I know its plastic, but I know with my speeds and feeds I could be running most any other material in the same time frame.

[gizmo_454]

That's really cookin'!