Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824


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Thread: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

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    Default Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    I upgraded my CNCRP 4824 Pro from a PC router to a water cooled spindle. It wasn’t really as easy (or cheap) as I thought it would be but it was fun and well worth the time and effort. The best part is the noise or lack of noise. Never ever let anyone tell you that a water cooled spindle isn’t a lot quieter than a router. There is no comparison. Of course the cutting bit will still make noise but that all depends on what you are cutting and how you are cutting it.

    I did a lot of research on the web before I did this. There is a lot of information and misinformation out there. All I can tell you is what I did and what works. The basic parts are as follows;

    1. Spindle. I went with the 2.2KW spindle with what is advertised as having four bearings from solar.jean. There are lots of reviews out there, some good, some bad, mostly good so I went with that.
    2. VFD. I got the Hitachi 2.2KW, WJ200-022SF. There are enough convincing people out there that say go high on the VFD and low on the spindle since all of the spindles probably come from the same place and it’s a crap shoot no matter where you get them but the spindle is a different story. Get the brand name for reliability.
    3. Cooling. On this, I used closed loop computer cooling equipment with a radiator and fan. It’s quite a bit more expensive than to simply put a sump pump in a bucket but since I do leave this unattended during cuts I thought that maybe the additional expense to protect my investment was worth it. It works great. No heating problems at all. One thing that I think is a necessity on a unit like this is a highly visible flow indicator. I use an inline indicator that spins a spiral thingy in a clear tube when there is coolant flow.
    4. Cabling. This is where you have to take a leap of faith. There are a lot of recommendations out there. I got the VFD to Spindle cable from igus.com, part number CF140-15-04. It is a 4 conductor, 16AWG flex cable. There is a comment on the 4 conductor part later.
    5. Electrical box. There is a box out on Amazon that the VFD fits in nicely and looks just like the CNCRP box already mounted, it’s even the same color. I got one of those.
    6. Controls. Right now I have a 1K potentiometer and a switch mounded on the front of the machine that controls the spindle on/off and speed. If I want to see what the speed is I have to open the electrical box and calculate it from the VFD display. I may do the analog control from the PC to the VFD eventually but I’m not real sure why I would want to. I’m used to doing it this way and it works really well.
    7. Power. I had to add a 220V line in the shop for this. I went with a single phase 20A circuit. The 20A seems to be more than adequate since it is dedicated to the VFD. (And the wire for a 30A circuit is a ***** to work with.)

    As to the 4 wires cable. The spindle, as wired, only uses three wires and the VFD only uses three wires to power it. There are 4 pins on the spindle but the 4th pin is not connected to anything. The 4th wire, when used, is for grounding the spindle case back to the VFD ground connection which in turn is system ground. Some people take the spindle apart and wire the 4th pin to the spindle chassis. I didn’t do that. Right now I’m relying on the ground being handled via spindle case to machine frame since the machine frame is grounded. It’s probably not a good idea since the electrical path goes through bearings that may or may now be fully in contact but I do plan on running an additional wire from ground to the spindle mount. Again, this is one of those things that there is a lot of discussion on. Most of it is a misunderstanding of the purpose and function of the 4 wire. It is not used to power the spindle. It is simply a safety ground.

    If you are on the fence as to whether or not to buy the CNCRP air cooled spindle package and you don’t really care if you have water or air cooled, then go with the air cooled CNCRP package. If you go after reliable parts you will be surprised how fast the total rises. You won’t really save that much money doing it yourself by the time you get all of the parts.

    I tried to show some of what I did with the pictures. I didn’t go into too much detail on some of this but I’d be happy to answer any questions on how I got this going. But….. This is how I did it and made it work. It doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do it.

    The last pic is something I had some fun with the other day on the machine. If you watch GOT and if you lived along the I-5 corridor from Portland to Seattle last winter it will make more sense.

    Bruce

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-1-jpg   Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-2-jpg   Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-3-jpg   Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-4-jpg  

    Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-jpg  


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Awesome! Thanks so much for the info as this is a configuration I'm debating. Quick question for you: aside from the 4th conductor issue, how difficult was it for you to fit the igus cable into the spindle connector? I've heard everything from "nearly impossible" to "fine". Thx again.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Fitting the cable into the connector wasn't really that bad. It was tight but doable. It made it a easier that I didn't connect that 4th wire. 16AWG is about as large as you can go though. If I had it to do over, I'd use a 3 wire cable and run a separate 4th for ground and connect it to the spindle bracket. The 4 wire cable takes a little persuading to fit into the connector body. A 3 wire would be just right.

    Having said all that, I think that not all connectors are created equal. From what I've read I think that the connector I ended up with is the smallest of the batch and the hardest to fit the wires into.



  4. #4

    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Super helpful, thanks. I've been debating a build with a 3kw spindle and 14 gauge but it's a crap shoot (I think) on how much larger that connector is than the ones on a 2.2



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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    You upgraded to the exact same setup I use on my 4824 Pro; Solarjean 2.2kW spindle, Hitachi WJ200, Igus cable & computer radiator cooling. Only difference, I use Mach3 with the CRP control box to control the spindle speed. Great setup, the only sound when in operations is the dust collector and cutting tool sounds.



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    Quote Originally Posted by GigaWatt View Post
    You upgraded to the exact same setup I use on my 4824 Pro; Solarjean 2.2kW spindle, Hitachi WJ200, Igus cable & computer radiator cooling. Only difference, I use Mach3 with the CRP control box to control the spindle speed. Great setup, the only sound when in operations is the dust collector and cutting tool sounds.
    Gigawatt- You're always a year ahead of me!
    I just got my Pro4824 up and running this week.
    I've been cleaning up the cables and making the spoilboard and starting on the dust collection. My dewalt618 is doing great but the spindle and vfd will be sooo nice.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-2017-08-08-14-50-35-jpg   Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-2017-08-08-14-50-54-jpg  


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Thank you for sharing , great post and confirmed a few things. Some day I'm going to buy a 4x4 pro from cncrouterparts. I was wanting to go with a water cooled spindle also , and a Hitachi vfd .
    I'm having a hard time justifying the price for the aircooled spindle and vfd from cncrouterparts. I wanted to build the electronics myself also , as I believe it will be beneficial for future troubleshooting, and less expensive

    I don't actually know anything about CNC router tables , but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Here is my latest addition to the spindle. For the water cooled Chinese spindles the wrench sizes are a little strange. The collet is 29.8mm and the spindle flat is 21.15. I found some collet wrenches that I thought I'd give a try at Probotix.com.

    When I ordered them I was a little worried that I'd just get a pair of cheap stamped metal wrenches. The turned out to be pretty impressive at 6.3mm (1/4") thick. You get a pair of wrenches that are 21.35mm on one end and 30.30mm on the other and well made. They work great.

    B

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-wrench-jpg  


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Quote Originally Posted by 2012JK View Post
    Gigawatt- You're always a year ahead of me!
    I just got my Pro4824 up and running this week.
    I've been cleaning up the cables and making the spoilboard and starting on the dust collection. My dewalt618 is doing great but the spindle and vfd will be sooo nice.
    Glad to see that you can "reverse" the cable tray and carrier, when I installed my CNCRP P&P, I had to move the try WAY to the back, I may redo it now that I see your setup.

    Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-img_3575-jpg



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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Quote Originally Posted by bamoore01 View Post
    Fitting the cable into the connector wasn't really that bad. It was tight but doable. It made it a easier that I didn't connect that 4th wire. 16AWG is about as large as you can go though. If I had it to do over, I'd use a 3 wire cable and run a separate 4th for ground and connect it to the spindle bracket. The 4 wire cable takes a little persuading to fit into the connector body. A 3 wire would be just right.

    Having said all that, I think that not all connectors are created equal. From what I've read I think that the connector I ended up with is the smallest of the batch and the hardest to fit the wires into.
    You should stop saying things like, if I did it over again, you would use a 3 wire, what you have done / wired is not legal and is very dangerous the spindle has to be Grounded back to the VFD Ground, the Ground through the machines frame is not satisfactory to take care of the spindle Grounding requirement

    It always helps if you buy the right cable that is suitable for your spindle plug, 4 wire shielded with the correct outside diameter is available for these small plugs

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Quote Originally Posted by Richmaple View Post
    Super helpful, thanks. I've been debating a build with a 3kw spindle and 14 gauge but it's a crap shoot (I think) on how much larger that connector is than the ones on a 2.2
    Why would you need to use 14 gauge wire, quality 16 gauge 20A rating from IGUS is way more than is needed, and will fit the spindle plug

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Mactec54,

    I thought I made it pretty clear that the 4th wire should be run for ground. I just don't see the need to do it in the shielded cable and connect it to a pin that doesn't go anywhere. It can be run outside of the shielded cable and connect from the spindle bracket to the VFD ground. As far as not being legal, I can only hope the cable cops don't come haul me out of bed in the middle of the night.

    If you know of a 4 wire cable that is suitable for these small connectors, please post a part number. I think we would all be interested.

    Bruce



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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Quote Originally Posted by bamoore01 View Post
    Mactec54,

    I thought I made it pretty clear that the 4th wire should be run for ground. I just don't see the need to do it in the shielded cable and connect it to a pin that doesn't go anywhere. It can be run outside of the shielded cable and connect from the spindle bracket to the VFD ground. As far as not being legal, I can only hope the cable cops don't come haul me out of bed in the middle of the night.

    If you know of a 4 wire cable that is suitable for these small connectors, please post a part number. I think we would all be interested.

    Bruce
    When you fry something, you will be saying where were the cable cops

    If you had any sense at all you would not of posted what you just did, it is a electrical code requirement, to have your 3 phase spindle Grounded, so it is not legal to have it wired the way you have, the 4th pin if not connected, you should connect it like everyone else does

    Before you buy your cable, check the cable diameter and the plug that it is fitting, There are several manufacturers that make the right size shielded cable to fit the plugs on these spindles, IGUS being one of the best cable suppliers, CF35-15-04 ( 9.5mm Diameter ) 16 Gauge this will fit the spindle plugs they have another cable as well but is 1mm larger it is CF31-15-04, ( 10.5 Diameter ) measure your plug and see what size cable will fit

    Mactec54


  14. #14

    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    mactec54, I agree with you. But didn't the original poster actually say (several times) that you SHOULD ground it and you SHOULD connect the as-delivered-un-connected 4th pin to ground? I don't think you're in disagreement. He/she is just saying you can connect that 4th pin outside of the shielded cable as it's not going to need shielding.



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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    But what Mactec is saying, is that it's not the right way to do it. You can do a lot of things that you shouldn't, but that doesn't make it right.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Quote Originally Posted by Richmaple View Post
    mactec54, I agree with you. But didn't the original poster actually say (several times) that you SHOULD ground it and you SHOULD connect the as-delivered-un-connected 4th pin to ground? I don't think you're in disagreement. He/she is just saying you can connect that 4th pin outside of the shielded cable as it's not going to need shielding.
    No you can't use a separate Ground wire as he suggests to do this, that is the idea of having a shielded cable is to protect, the wires even the Ground wire, will carry EMF and EMI

    When using a VFD Drive with an Ac motor, the motors Rotor has a Voltage called CMV, this can reach a voltage high enough to execute anyone that comes in contact with it, without having a Ground connected there is no path for this CMV to discharge, but through the shaft or body of the Motor / Spindle, this is why a Ground is always needed, used in a Shielded cable

    It is not just a safety Ground it's being used the whole time the Motor or Spindle has power on it, here is a snip of what is happening inside a VFD driven AC Motor / Spindle

    As from the snip you can see why Spindle Bearings don't last as long as they should, as the voltage passes through the Bearings, quality AC motors that are built for VFD use have a built in Brush that is in contact with the shaft, and this prevents the Voltage going through the Bearings, it takes this Voltage straight to Ground / Earth

    This is just a simple explanation of what is happening with a VFD driven Motor / Spindle

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-cmv-vfd-driven-ac-motors-png  
    Mactec54


  17. #17

    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Mactec54, again, thank you for the info and contributing to the thread. This is good info for lots of people so please get that I'm trying to fully understand. I don't even own a CNC or a spindle or VFD. I just want to understand.

    I totally get that equipment needs to be properly grounded. I have a general OSHA safety cert and I understand how lethal high voltage (even low, actually) can be. SO no argument there.
    I didn't fully appreciate the need for the ground to be shielded, but it does make sense that it would be subject to EMF and other noise, so no argument there either. For my future CNC I had also planned on just measuring the connector and buying IGUS cable that does fit (and has all 4 conductors). So I get it.

    One thing is still a bit out of place for me. I DO understand the issue of CMV and the damage to bearings, etc, that the voltage having to jump across bearings and bearing races can cause. BUT... almost all of the chinese spindles come delivered with the 4 pin on the input connector connected to absolutely nothing. Literally a complete open circuit. It's not attached to the outer casing, nor to any brushes that might help properly dissipate internal CMW. Many users don't know this, so they do nothing, which is probably the most dangerous action. The only safe-ish option (I think) is to open up the spindle and attach that pin to the inside part of the casing. That does not help with the bearing problem, but it does at least ground the spindle housing. THIS is what I was referring to.... that in this scenario, there is no difference between grounding that 4th pin and just grounding the outer spindle housing, because that's literally what you connect that 4th pin to anyway on the cheap chinese spindles.

    I'd love for there to be a way to connect the 4th pin to some special brushes to properly handle CMV but I don't see how that's possible (is it?). Anyway, mainly making a point that the chinese spindles are "special" in this case that they have a disconnected 4th pin and you must choose what to do with is, and that I don't personally see a way of doing anything with it that's better than using it to ground the case/housing.

    Again, thanks for keeping the discourse here civil. I think it's important to keep these forums an actual intelligent resource of info, so thanks for clearing all of this up for us!



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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Quote Originally Posted by Richmaple View Post
    Mactec54, again, thank you for the info and contributing to the thread. This is good info for lots of people so please get that I'm trying to fully understand. I don't even own a CNC or a spindle or VFD. I just want to understand.

    I totally get that equipment needs to be properly grounded. I have a general OSHA safety cert and I understand how lethal high voltage (even low, actually) can be. SO no argument there.
    I didn't fully appreciate the need for the ground to be shielded, but it does make sense that it would be subject to EMF and other noise, so no argument there either. For my future CNC I had also planned on just measuring the connector and buying IGUS cable that does fit (and has all 4 conductors). So I get it.

    One thing is still a bit out of place for me. I DO understand the issue of CMV and the damage to bearings, etc, that the voltage having to jump across bearings and bearing races can cause. BUT... almost all of the chinese spindles come delivered with the 4 pin on the input connector connected to absolutely nothing. Literally a complete open circuit. It's not attached to the outer casing, nor to any brushes that might help properly dissipate internal CMW. Many users don't know this, so they do nothing, which is probably the most dangerous action. The only safe-ish option (I think) is to open up the spindle and attach that pin to the inside part of the casing. That does not help with the bearing problem, but it does at least ground the spindle housing. THIS is what I was referring to.... that in this scenario, there is no difference between grounding that 4th pin and just grounding the outer spindle housing, because that's literally what you connect that 4th pin to anyway on the cheap chinese spindles.

    I'd love for there to be a way to connect the 4th pin to some special brushes to properly handle CMV but I don't see how that's possible (is it?). Anyway, mainly making a point that the chinese spindles are "special" in this case that they have a disconnected 4th pin and you must choose what to do with is, and that I don't personally see a way of doing anything with it that's better than using it to ground the case/housing.

    Again, thanks for keeping the discourse here civil. I think it's important to keep these forums an actual intelligent resource of info, so thanks for clearing all of this up for us!
    As for the 4th pin not being connected on these Chinese Spindles, By Grounding to the body works, but you have then an exposed Ground wire which will emit EMF if not shielded, and is difficult to do when you have a wire outside of the shielded cable

    Another problem is the shield termination, most don't do this correctly, which results in noise problems for other electronics in the system

    Most of the water cooled spindles have a metal end cap it is easy to connect the 4th pin, and 99% of all users connect it if it is not already connected

    The good spindles have the 4th pin already connected when you buy them, the cheap one's do not ( 2 ) snips ( 1 ) from a quality Chinese spindle Manufacturer, and how to connect the 4th pin this may be slightly different depending on the Plug fitted to the Spindle it's a simple fix if you have to do it

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-ground-wire-2-jpg   Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-good-spindle-will-show-png  
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Martec54,

    Let me start by repeating the last part of my first post, "This is how I did it and made it work. It doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do it.". That was an invitation for just this type of discussion. I'm kind of like some of the other folks posting here. If I'm going to change things, and I may based on these discussions, I'd like to understand why.

    As to the wire size. The part number that I listed in that first post was from Igus, a 9.5mm dia 4 conductor 16g shielded flex cable, like the one you listed. It was the smallest 4 wire shielded flex cable that I thought I could get in the connector. It barely fit. I was worried about breaking those tiny little shell screws when tightening the shell.

    In your earlier posts and picture I thought that you were saying that you should ground the actual spindle shaft to make this work. I see from the last post that it looks like you are good with grounding the motor case back to the VFD. Is that correct?

    When you say that the ground wire needs to be shielded, is it because of the possible RFI generated that will interfere with the other electronics or is it based on a safety issue of the ground wire being able to carry any current that might be generated on the line if it is outside of the shielding. On this one I'm still not sure I'm agreeing that the ground wire needs to be shielded.

    EDIT: And I still stand by my post on the wrenches. Love em.

    B

    Last edited by bamoore01; 08-27-2017 at 04:40 PM.


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    Default Re: Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

    Quote Originally Posted by bamoore01 View Post
    Martec54,

    Let me start by repeating the last part of my first post, "This is how I did it and made it work. It doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do it.". That was an invitation for just this type of discussion. I'm kind of like some of the other folks posting here. If I'm going to change things, and I may based on these discussions, I'd like to understand why.

    As to the wire size. The part number that I listed in that first post was from Igus, a 9.5mm dia 4 conductor 16g shielded flex cable, like the one you listed. It was the smallest 4 wire shielded flex cable that I thought I could get in the connector. It barely fit. I was worried about breaking those tiny little shell screws when tightening the shell.

    In your earlier posts and picture I thought that you were saying that you should ground the actual spindle shaft to make this work. I see from the last post that it looks like you are good with grounding the motor case back to the VFD. Is that correct?

    When you say that the ground wire needs to be shielded, is it because of the possible RFI generated that will interfere with the other electronics or is it based on a safety issue of the ground wire being able to carry any current that might be generated on the line if it is outside of the shielding. On this one I'm still not sure I'm agreeing that the ground wire needs to be shielded.

    EDIT: And I still stand by my post on the wrenches. Love em.

    B
    If you where not happy with the plug, change it to something better, lots do

    If you add a Ground wire on the outside of the regular shielded cable, as what you suggested, then why waste you money having a shielded cable at all, as the Ground wire will be very noisy, it also will carry CMV the whole time the spindle is running, that is the reason for it to be shielded, and how the cable you have is supposed to be used


    As for Grounding the spindle shaft, that is not so easy for a Hobby user, but very doable as I have add a end brush to some of these spindles, this then sends the CMV direct to Ground instead of through the Bearings, which suffer over time

    This is an important question ?? You said in your first post that you are using ( 2 ) different power service supplies 120v and a 240v supply how do you have the wiring for this, there could be some problems with how you have done this also, which could affect the whole machine

    Correct termination of Shields is also just as important as doing correct wiring, some snips of how to terminate a shield

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-shield-clamp-3-png   Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824-grounding-shields-3-png  
    Mactec54


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Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824

Added water cooled spindle to my PRO4824