Changing from a router to a spindle.

[Jim Dawson]

I don't think any amount of cooling will allow you to run a chinese spindle at near zero speeds. I've heard of some people doing drilling at 2000-3000 rpm. I guess it really depends on how hard you push it, and how slow.
I'm not sure if the spindles can really take advantage of a higher end VFD?

I've been bench testing a pair of air cooled 2.2kw spindles, and I wouldn't even consider a water cooled spindle.

I agree, I was thinking in the 2500 to 3000 range. As far as the VFD, having an extra 3hp sensorless vector VFD around is not a bad thing. I stock a few VFDs anyway, just for backups and projects.

What is your objection to a water cooled spindle?

[Al_The_Man]

is the water cooling going to be sufficient at speeds below the spindle motor rated lower speed? Your thoughts? Additional cooling needed?

The reason for high current/burn out on the small dia spindles is the low inductive reactance (in Ohms) which decreases with rpm.
A normal 3600 rpm induction motor has a very large steel mass under the stator coils and this assists in raising the inductive reactance at that frequency as it dependent on frequency for the final value.
Al.

[ger21]

What is your objection to a water cooled spindle?

An air cooled spindle does the same thing, without the hassle of water cooling.

[Dan911]

I use a Swiftech radiator with 2 fans mounted with my water cooled 3kw spindle. It added a extra step in setup, but it's no hassle once setup, it's a sealed system and goes on with VFD. IMO there may be a few advantages with water cooled, you have other options if you find your spindle getting hot after excessive use, also you get the same cooling power regardless what rpm and not less when you need it most. I never used these other options and my air cooled spindle never gets nothing more than warm to touch. I just like to debat...lol

Dan

[Ryadia]

I am thinking about replacing the Porter Cable 7518 router motor on my router, it has about 500 hours on it so is getting time to think about replacing. It works OK, a bit more power would be nice, but the main goal is noise reduction. The noise level between the router and my suction system is roughly jet engine. I'm thinking about 2.2KW water cooled for noise reduction. The machine originally had a 10KW spindle so the machine is plenty heavy to take the 2.2KW, I just don't have enough power available to run more than a 2.2KW spindle.
So the questions:
Any recommendations on a specific brand of spindle, what have you had good luck with? Pick an Ebay vendor and take my chances?
Any reason not to use a water cooled spindle?
Any advantage to using a sensorless vector VFD vs a V/Hz VFD? I'm not worried about the cost difference.

Thanks !

There seems to some conjecture about what I wrote regarding noise, power and spindles. I can only speal from my personal experience. If someone else has different experience that is no reason to say I'm wrong.
I've got a 1 HP Bosch router. Had it for years. Worn out 3 sets of ear muffs in the process. I've also got a no name "Global" engraving router. Both are noisy, both have instant torque. I can start the Bosch up hard against a deep cut and it starts cutting the minute I pull the trigger. The Global cost me $80 5 years ago. I used it in a home made tracing engraver to cut house names. It wasn't as noisy as the Bosch but tit didn't have anywhere near to power of it either. Still needed ear protection.

Then along came my 3020 router with an air cooled spindle. Noisy, under powered and regularly blew my 10 amp protection switch. I replaced that junk with an 800 watt water cooled spindle. Almost silent right up to 4000 RPM. The noise of a router is both from the brush motor and the bits used. Oddly enough its quieter cutting aluminum than wood. Probably the speed reduction and constant flow of water. Now I have a 7545 router with (originally) an 800 watt water cooled spindle but now sporting a 1.8 KW water cooled spindle. I shelled out nearly $50 for a new design end mill claimed to be 60% quieter than traditional designs. I wouldn't say it really was 60% quieter but it is a lot quieter. Ear muffs are cheaper.

Australian Redgum hardwood is about as hard as you can get and still saw it. The $50 end mill dies a very blunt death about 2 feet into the Redgum I was carving.

Three things I've learned about Ebay since 1998.
1. Ebay's forced guarantee isn't worth the words its written with. Things might be different in the USA but they let crooked Chinese list item they have already sent to Australia and put into storage as if the item was being bought in Australia from an Australian. Its not right and certainly not legal. Its just a scam to avoid Australian Consumer Laws. The Chinese crooks evaporate as soon as you mention a few key words... Like refund or guarantee.

2. Anyone who pays for goods from Chinese sellers on Ebay any other way than with payPal needs to go see a Councillor. At least you can get a refund if the goods don't arrive, are not what you bought or the seller refuses to guarantee them. (Talking about new stuff here)

3. Accepting Chinese "free postage" puts you in the same class as the people who pay using Western Union. If your wife is pregnant, your child may well be in college by the time it arrives. Far better to use Ali Express or Alibaba and choose the 7 to 21 day with tracking number option. You'll probably get the stuff on day 22 but at least you'll get it.

I regularly import goods from China. Lots of 1 to 3 thousand items are not uncommon for me. The manufacturers I do business with are honest and ethical people even though they don't know what ethics are. I frequently sell the parts I buy as well as use them in my products. I don't mess around if someone has a problem with anything they buy. I either replace the item or refund their money... And no, what I bring in has nothing to do with routers. Another fellow wrote recently that he buys from someone who imports goods too and gets instructions and guarantees. These people would be my first choice to do business with because they understand that if they don't obey consumer laws, there is likely to be serious implications for them. Try to get anything refunded from a Chinese Ebay merchant selling spindles, routers or router bits and they'll disappear before they'll refund your money.

If you are thinking about buying a new anything, buy from a local and forget Ebay exists.

Ryadia

[ger21]

Then along came my 3020 router with an air cooled spindle. Noisy, under powered and regularly blew my 10 amp protection switch

Can you post a pic of this spindle?

The noise of a router is both from the brush motor and the bits used.

Most of the noise from a router is from it's cooling fan.
Disregard the type of bit used for a moment, as cutting noise should be a different conversation.



Air cooled spindles come in a variety of types, and their noise levels can vary considerably.

Better quality spindles use electric fans, which can move a lot of air, at all speeds. The fan noise is quite noticeable, but not objectionable.

Air cooled spindles with shaft driven fans can have varying noise levels. The round chinese 2.2Kw spindles I have are near silent at 8000rpm, and similar to electric fans at 24,000 rpm.
I've seen a square bodied air cooled spindle with a shaft driven fan, and it was every bit as loud as a loud router at 24,000 rpm.
So, you're mileage may vary, and may vary greatly.

Cutting noise is an entirely different animal.
I certainly wouldn't pay extra for "low noise" tooling. I'd prefer tooling designed to make the best cuts, regardless of the noise. And I seriously doubt that tooling can make an appreciable difference in noise, when cutting wood.
An exception to this is roughing bits, which have a "scalloped" cutting edge. They can cut incredibly fast, and are very quiet.
Cutting noise can vary greatly, and is affected by a lot of things. Tool size, feedrate, and workholding can all play a large part.
1/4" tools will often cause a high pitched screaming noise. This is usually caused by cutting too slowly. Increasing the feedrate will often reduce the noise significantly. Moving up to a larger diameter tool, will also reduce the noise.
If your parts are not securely held in place, vibration can create a LOT of noise.

[Ryadia]

Can you post a pic of this spindle?.

I would happily show it to if I still had it. I sent it back to the manufacturer for a refund.

Somehow refund must be a keyword for panicking some people. In Australia if you tell a vendor what you want to do with a product and it doesn't do it, that is legal grounds for a refund. The guy behind Masso offered me a refund just like the Chinese mob who made the dodgy router. Neither of them have been what you might call "Prompt" in providing a refund. The Chinese mob disappeared off Ebay a month ago but the dodgy routers are still being sold there. Hind Technology (the Masso mob) have given me 3 different excuses as to why they charged me an extra $100 for Proximity switches I didn't order and only one excuse (so far) why they got the Masso back in its original packing but haven't refunded my money.

All I can say about this is how lucky we are to have the Internet to warn others and 'Fair Trading' absolutely do not hesitate to take sellers who offer refunds and don't give them - to the 'Small Claims Tribunal' which always results in News coverage. As for the Chinese seller... Well this is why I will tell anyone who will listen why you should never pay any other way than with PayPal if you shop on Ebay. BTW, I may have a photo at the office. I'll check on Monday.

Ryadia

[denz]

Hello,
I am looking into changing from a router to a spindle. Some questions for you all if ya don't mind...
Looking at a 2.2kw with vfd air cooled. First question is what kind of cable is required between the vfd and spindle? Any suggestions for locating this cable?
I have read about only connecting three leads to the spindle and not the ground. yet I don't fully understand why some do and some don't.
What is the recommended lowest spindle speed for an air cooled spindle to prevent overheat damage?
Any other advice would be great as well!
Thanks in advance...
Rockaukum

Have a look on youtube CNC NUTZ.
He has a three part series on how to connect Spinal and VFD in detail.
Cheers

[onecut]

VFD cable. You can get it from McMaster-Carr, or from Igus.

People don't connect a ground, because they are lazy. It's potentially very dangerous to not do so.

I've heard that 8000 is the lowest safe speed. But it depends on the ambient temperature, and how hard you're pushing the spindle.

Ger21, I bought Belden 29520C 16/3C XLPE/PVC VFD WITH 3. Is this wire ok for 2.5 kw vfd to spindle? It's three conductor, can I use the bare wire as ground for the fourth wire?

[CNCMAN172]

Onecut,

This wire does not appear to have a braided copper shield either. It looks like maybe a foil shield. I would get a four conductor cable with braided shield. The EMI noise generated from a spindle can play havoc on all your other electronics causing the cnc control to freeze. Trust me when I say the additional cost to avoid all of those type headaches is really worth it.

Russ

[onecut]

So, I guess I can't make this wire work.

[Alwaysintheknow]

Russ is right, the interference does all kinds of bad things, this is what I have been using with no problems

Belden 29500 16 AWG 4 Conductor Shielded VFD 1000V UL Flexible Motor Supply Cable
Item# BEL29500
Its larger than the 4 pin connector to my 2.2kw spindle, needed to modify it a little