Changing from a router to a spindle.

[CNCMAN172]

1/2" shank on bits is extremely common in the CNC world. For example many V-carving bits in 60 degree, 90 degree use 1/2" shanks, while you can get bits with 1/4" shanks the bigger ones are must more stable, this is even true in using those bits in a hand router. You will also find many other cutters with half in shanks. Then as you go down in size you will find that many bits have 1/8" shank with very tiny endmills, for example 1/32". ER20 collet is nice because you can go up to 1/2" that is why it is very popular.

Russ

[jckstrthmghty]

Using an air cooled spindle is going to seriously limit the time you can run your machine for. Almost all Chinese Spindles over 800kw are water cooled. It can take as long a 4 hours (or more) to create a masterpiece. Increase the spindle speed (read operating heat) by 20% and you reduce that time by almost an hour.

I have a cheap ebay air cooled 800kw spindle. I do not run it 24/7 however 3-4 hour sessions are common. Gets warm but never uncomfortable to touch. I would not give it a second thought to run it longer. 3 years and still going strong.

It is seriously bad practice BTW to start a big job and walk away from the machine.

I understand this line of thought however what is the point in automation if you cannot allow the machine to work on it's own? Failure is bound to happen whether you are there or not however after establishing some history of reliability I hope you can at least trust your limit switches to save your machine and only lose time, material, and maybe a cutter when things go south. Crap does happen though.

[ger21]

There are many documented cases of machines catching on fire, that never hit limit switches. It takes about 10 seconds to start a fire with a CNC router.

[jckstrthmghty]

There are many documented cases of machines catching on fire, that never hit limit switches. It takes about 10 seconds to start a fire with a CNC router.

Fair enough however I didn't mean to run a 12 hour job then leave the building for a couple of days. In my case I typically run a cut then go upstairs and do something else whatever that may be. When I hear the dust collection turn off I go and check the results. I admit I have run cuts and gone out for a few hours a couple of time. Your insight makes me glad I have a quality fire alarm with internet video in the basement.

[rockaukum]

Still searching and reading about spindles and vfd's. Getting nervous as I hope to pull the trigger soon. I must admit my focus had been on the lesser expensive stuff from china on ebay. However the more reading I do, the more nervous I get. Especially on the vfd's. So I have started to look into the Hitachi WJ200. Questions are:
Is this the correct one for a 2.2kw spindle?
Are these better than the HuanYang's?
If so, What is it that makes one unit more reliable and longer lasting?
If I go with the Hitachi, what are the thoughts on using it with a Chinese spindle?
Any issues with going with a used vfd? Such as:
Hitachi Inverter WJ200-022HF Variable Frequency Drive 380-480V 5.5A | eBay
As you may have figured out, Price is a factor and was hoping to make this conversion within the $400 range.
Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Rockaukum

[ger21]

Just get the Huanyang, they work fine. Many people have been using them for years with no problems.
That's an awful lot of questions.
Yes the Hitachi is better, Possibly better components, better quality control, more features. They work fine with Chinese spindles.
This is the one you'd want for a 2.2Kw spindle:
https://www.driveswarehouse.com/wj200-022sf-2527
I paid nearly $200 less for my Huanyang. If it dies, I can buy another and will still have spent less than the Hitachi.

That used one you linked to requires 400V 3 phase power.

Something like this is well within your budget.
2.2KW 80MM AIR COOLED ER20 SPINDLE MOTOR 4 BEARING & INVERTER DRIVE VFD CNC | eBay

[rockaukum]

thanks,
yes I know it was a bunch of questions. The more I read the more I get cautious about who I should buy from. I was conversing with solar.jean and made an offer. They immediately wanted to sell off ebay. I have read some accounts of the problems going that route. I feel it is a big gamble on who you buy from and it seems to change form day to day. Any experience with any of these retailers? Perhaps the one linked to?

[ger21]

I bought my VFD from Solar Jean.
I would buy from them again, as they have been around probably longer than anyone else. But I would only buy through Ebay. They'll probably have a slightly better price off Ebay, as they are trying to avoid the Ebay fees.

[rockaukum]

ger21,
Thank you for your help with this. It is refreshing to see someone willing to help another out. Especially when that someone is very new and asks a lot of questions....
I do try to do research and sometimes it leads me further into the black hole!
I'll give them a go and hope for the best!
By the way, I plan on getting the cable from McMaster-Carr and I see it is 14Ga. Did you have any issues with the wire being too big for the connection at the spindle? If it is, I have read that you can do a splice with 16 or 18 just before the spindle in order to make it work (fit). Do you have any comments about this as well?
Thanks again!
Rockaukum

[DonFrambach]

I was in your shoes a few years ago and decided buy my spindle and a Delta VDF from ugracnc.com. They're located in the United States but import the spindles they sell from China. They test each spindle before they send it out. I bought an air-cooled spindle from them a few years ago that came with a pre-programmed Delta VFD so it was truly plug and play. It was more expensive than the e-bay route but painless and worry free for me.

I bought a water-cooled spindle from them a few months ago with another Delta VFD that was not programmed but came with very clear instructions specifically for my spindle (as well as the complete Delta documentation) so it was quite easy to get it going too (after I figured out how to connect the pump and heat sink to the spindle). The tubing connections were not completely straight forward because they were all different sizes but, after I bought the necessary connectors and adapters from McMaster all was good.

YMMV

One point I must make is that after you use a spindle, you'll never want to use a router again!

[ger21]

By the way, I plan on getting the cable from McMaster-Carr and I see it is 14Ga. Did you have any issues with the wire being too big for the connection at the spindle? If it is, I have read that you can do a splice with 16 or 18 just before the spindle in order to make it work (fit). Do you have any comments about this as well?

Do NOT splice it. And no, it probably will not fit. What many people do, is replace the connector with a better one.

I haven't wired mine up permanently yet, but plan on swapping the connector.

[Jim Dawson]

I am thinking about replacing the Porter Cable 7518 router motor on my router, it has about 500 hours on it so is getting time to think about replacing. It works OK, a bit more power would be nice, but the main goal is noise reduction. The noise level between the router and my suction system is roughly jet engine. I'm thinking about 2.2KW water cooled for noise reduction. The machine originally had a 10KW spindle so the machine is plenty heavy to take the 2.2KW, I just don't have enough power available to run more than a 2.2KW spindle.

So the questions:

Any recommendations on a specific brand of spindle, what have you had good luck with? Pick an Ebay vendor and take my chances?

Any reason not to use a water cooled spindle?

Any advantage to using a sensorless vector VFD vs a V/Hz VFD? I'm not worried about the cost difference.

Thanks !

[CNCMAN172]

Jim,
Get the 3KW units it works great, has slightly larger bearings, I have been running one for 10 years with no issues. Noise level is very quiet compared to my old router. Again, you get a great deal of noise from whatever your cutting and the vacuum but when engraving for example no ear protection is even needed.
Russ

[Ryadia]

Routers are definitely noisy. They are brush motors. Spindles on the other hand are usually brush-less motors and quiet. The difference is starting torque. A router has torque from start up (within a few milliseconds) Brushless motors need time to build up to revs and gain torque from the speed. Nothing like what you can get out of a router but they are quiet until the bit hits the work and then they are almost as noisy as a router.

Routers can work alone. They only need vertical (Z Axis) control. Spindles on the other hand need to be controlled and to do that, they need a VFD. Some software (like Vcarve that I use) can control the spindle speeds based on a predetermined chart of bits. To do this they need a VFD attached to the spindle witch needs to be programmed to hand over speed control to software (the G codes) or it just runs flat out.

The benefit of a spindle is speed manageable by Gcodes. For this to happen they need a 'VFD' power supply. This is where the complication that has plagued my progress to production occurs. After buying and returning a Masso "ALL-IN-ONE" controller and fitting a Gecko Drive to control the stepper motors, I started on software control of the spindle. The VFD (Variable Frequency Drive). I discovered quite by accident that the external wires are supplemented by connections hidden from view and the P-codes to allow software control of the spindle speed are not supplied with the router I bought. True that my machine is a baby compared to yours but the principals don't change. Yes, I was wrong about the power but everything else is accurate.

Do you have a control box like this one? If yes, do you have anything in it that looks like a VFD? I've tried to show in this picture a control box that can control the spindle, the stepper motors and (via parallel cable) limit or proximity switches to prevent the machine destroying itself. The 220 hand scrawled on the VFD is the voltage is supposed to run on. This too is adjustable.

All of this presumes your shinny new PC has a parallel port but there are some 'things' you can buy on Aliexpress (preferable to Ebay for honesty) that allows you to access the control box using a network cable. If you hunt around you can also find a driver that allows the parallel port to connect to a USB outlet and receive all the right signals. The real tragedy of CNC is that almost all the machines are still centered around the parallel port. Its the only computer outlet that lets you easily define up to 25 different connection places. This of course opens a Pandora's box for any programmer who doesn't give a hoot in hell about standards. Herein lies most problems people encounter with CNC machines. Bloody Programmers! At least when you use a Bridgeport mill you can see what you are doing. As soon as you even think about CNC for it all that control evaporates.

Let me know about your spindle. I've just spent a week learning how to control one via G-codes.

Ryadia

[ger21]

I've just spent a week learning how to control one via G-codes.

M3 - Spindle On
S10000 - 10,000 rpm
M5 - Spindle Off

The real tragedy of CNC is that almost all the machines are still centered around the parallel port.

Only the cheap chinese machines, because they ship with pirated software that can control a machine through the parallel port. This doesn't cost any extra money. Except for LinuxCNC, All other modern low cost CNC controls use either USB or ethernet.

[steve323]

Do NOT splice it. And no, it probably will not fit. What many people do, is replace the connector with a better one.

I haven't wired mine up permanently yet, but plan on swapping the connector.

Another option is to take a round file or a Dremel to open up the clamp on the connector so the wire will fit. My 1.5Kw spindle came with a connector that must have a 0.3" hole, but the cable is nearly 0.4".

Steve

[GigaWatt]

I'm a 70 year old woodworker and also a retired electrical engineer. I've just gotten into cnc routing, building my first machine a Pro4824, so I don't have a lot of experience. As an ee, I always lean toward buying quality components. I decided initially to go with a water cooled 2.2 kW spindle which I bought from Solar Jean. I debated for weeks between Huanyang vfd and Hitachi WJ200-022FS. I finally bought the WJ200 from Drives Warehouse. With info from the vfd section of this forum and 2 calls to support at Drives Warehouse I easily had the Hitachi setup and controlling the spindle. Drives Warehouse has excellent tech support IMHO. After using traditional routers for decades, I can tell you the spindle is the route to go. Presently I'm using a shop vac for dust collection because I haven't taken the time to connect to my 2hp dust collector. I can barely here the water cooled spindle running over the sound of the shop vac!

[Al_The_Man]

Routers are definitely noisy. They are brush motors. Spindles on the other hand are usually brush-less motors and quiet. The difference is starting torque. A router has torque from start up (within a few milliseconds) Brushless motors need time to build up to revs and gain torque from the speed. Nothing like what you can get out of a router but they are quiet until the bit hits the work and then they are almost as noisy as a router.

Not quite true, the majority of P.M. DC and BLDC motors from the 80's on have a flat torque curve starting at maximum at zero rpm.
Universal motors (routers etc) are particularly noisy because being series motors they operate in a run away condition, speed is limited by friction and windage, typical 20krpm.
Maybe you are confusing it with HP?
Al.

[Jim Dawson]

I am considering using a water cooled 2.2 KW spindle on my router. Most of the water cooled spindles have a published RPM range of 6K to 24K. Using a sensorless vector VFD you can have pretty much 100% rated torque from 0 to max RPM. The horsepower is of course dependant on RPM. The unloaded current draw of the motor is greater at lower RPM than it is at the mid ranges, my mill motor (3 hp Baldor inverter rated) at 600 rpm draws about 57% unloaded but at 1800 RPM draws about 25% unloaded and thus runs a bit warmer (but well within normal limits) at the lower speed.

So the questions: Given that the cheap spindles may be marginal at best, is the water cooling going to be sufficient at speeds below the spindle motor rated lower speed? Your thoughts? Additional cooling needed?

[ger21]

I don't think any amount of cooling will allow you to run a chinese spindle at near zero speeds. I've heard of some people doing drilling at 2000-3000 rpm. I guess it really depends on how hard you push it, and how slow.
I'm not sure if the spindles can really take advantage of a higher end VFD?

I've been bench testing a pair of air cooled 2.2kw spindles, and I wouldn't even consider a water cooled spindle.