Power requirements questions....

[pete from TN]

I am very seriously considering getting into a small used VMC for my home shop lately. I have converted a milling machine now and am slowly learning to use it. I also have some products I have been selling that seem to be at least consistent in their demand. I also have some ideas for a few other products that I would want this machine for. I have a decent sized shop at my home here in Tennessee and I have a dedicated power run to my shop with 220v single phase at 50 amps. Right now this has been enough for me to run my commercial sized Tig welder as well as every other wood or metalworking machine I own up to about five HP. I have never owned anything larger so I am unsure about wether or not I can actually power it. Of course if necessary I can have another box installed to the shop and pay another power bill specific to it but I was wondering what some of you guys here are using and how your shops are setup for this. My shop has a decent poured slab and I actually recently bought and kept a very large Lathe here which I would guess was in the four thousand pound range maybe more not really sure but it was the largest piece of equipment I have had here. I recently sold it and as I said I am thinking about a small commercial VMC such as the Cincinatti 500's matsuura 500 series possibly a smaller bridgeport interact, or something similar. I am actually hoping to get a real nice deal on one that might need some work. I am currently trying to sell my knee mill and if necessary I will sell my lifted rock crawler to get the money together.

The reality is that I am VERY interested in this stuff and I have been able to make some decent side money just goofing in my shop manually. THis cnc thing makes things go to another level now. I have a friend who owns a local machine shop and they have a few machines that they use there that I could see having in my shop due to their size. One is an enshu? and it is a very nice smaller vmc. They told me to stay away from the machines that run with hydraulic systems on them and try to go electronic everything. It is apparently cheaper and easier to repair and more user serviceable as well and cleaner inside the box as it were.

What kind of power setups do you guys have in your smaller shops here and have any of you actually moved the machines yourself? I have moved this large lathe as well as many other heavy machines but this is possibly on another level and best left to the pro's//

Also I have the same issue I read here many times, my shop ceiling is more than nine feet high but the doors are only like seven feet or so tall. If I have to I will redo one garage door to get the machine in but it would be nice not to have to. My Crawler gets inside and out without and it is on 35" boggers.... peace

[scudzuki]

Seasons Greetings Pete
It was recommended to me to have 100 amps of single phase 220 to run a 20 HP rotary phase converter for a CNC mill with a 10 HP spindle like the Arrow 500. Word is, some CNC machines will run fine on a rotary converter despite the voltage variation of the derived leg, and some converters have less variation than others. Another option is a Phase Perfect digital converter
http://www.phaseperfect.com/
which I bet are pricey, but generate far cleaner power and users on the CNC forum here rave about them. I have access to 3 phase from the utility where my machine sits now so I have no personal experience with converted power.

Joe

[LeftCoastCNC]

As far as moving the VMC yourself, a Cincinnati 500 for example weighs around 8000 lbs. If you have a forklift and truck/trailer combo that can handle that much weight safely there is no reason you can't do it yourself. If you would have to rent the equipment you might as well hire somebody to move it for you.

[pete from TN]

I have moved as I said before some relatively heavy machines and this would be by far the heaviest so I may need to seek pro help on that one but we will see. I am not there yet. WOW man 100 amps for the ten HP spindle motor, Jeez that is a lot of power. I do not have three phase here but I would have thought a larger rotary phase converter would do the trick. I frequent a local pro machine shop and they have there a machine callen an ENSHU? It is a small footprint machine and runs on three phase but seems to be a real nice mill complete with flood coolant enclosure, chip conveyor, atc, rigid tapping, etc. It also takes up about as much space as my current cnc conversion and all it's associated stuff does. Perhaps the cincinatti arrow is too large a machine for me but I am hopeful that there is something similar out there that would do the same or similar work with slightly less power and weight.

This is gonna take some time to figure out and find the right machine and I appreciate the help you fellows are providing. I watch ebay all the time now for a suitable machine that I think might work for me. I saw a post somewhere that has a fellow who purchased a nice used Leadwell smaller VMC and it was redone with pc control. The machine had a toolchanger too... nice work there. I think something like that might work for me... peace

[scudzuki]

According to the manual, an Arrow 500 weighs 6700 lbs and has a footprint of 7'10" deep x 10'2" wide, 8'10" high.

Joe

[pete from TN]

Looks like I may not have the power or door height for a machine like that, that is okay because I may be going in a slightly different direction now.... peace

[scudzuki]

Pete,
I will measure to collapsed height of my Arrow 500 one night this week. The height I quoted is ceiling clearance, the machine should be 20" shorter with the z axis at its lowest. I have an inquiry in to Phase Perfect regarding the smallest digital phase converter that will safely power the Arrow 500 (since I'm looking into building my own home workshop) and how much current that converter requires (they are very efficient, and it may be much less than I was led to believe for the rotary converter). I'll post back when I find out.
Joe

[pete from TN]

Thanks for that man, sure do appreciate it. I was beginning to think there was no hope. I was talking to another fellow on the zone and he was saying that a large bedmill would be a good alternative. Something like the southwestern industries models. They sure do look heavy duty and I could do similar work with one of those only most do not have a toolchanger. They could easily be run off a phase converter in the shop. I do not know what I am gonna end up with but the plan is to get something more commercial yet small enough and low power enough for my shop. Peace....

Pete

[scudzuki]

From Phase Perfect

You would probably use our PT330 which is rated at 10HP. You generally do not have to oversize with our converters. http://www.phaseperfect.com/files/pt330specs.htm $2875 plus shipping.

Conversion ratio is the square root of 3 (1.732) The PT330 has a maximum steady state output of 36amps 3 phase. In order to get that, you would need feed it 62amps single phase 36 X 1.732=62

If you want to run more than a 10 HP mill off it,

PT355 is rated up to 20HP.
http://www.phaseperfect.com/files/pt355specs.htm $4667 plus shipping.

I'll try to remember to measure the collapsed height tomorrow. Looks like I may be building my home shop after all. Wonder how my neighbors will feel about a my 3" inserted shell mill plowing through steel...

[KE5AFU]

It will clear, I just moved a Sabre 750 into my garage yesterday. my garage door is only 7 foot, I had to take the top servo off to make it fit ( 4 main bolts, 5 hex screws on a cover and the worm screw on the collar) very easy to do, the wires will scrape if you don't push them down as it is passing under the door but it will fit.

I'm in the same boat on power though, my main service is only 100 amps, so we will see. I'm trying to locate a good used converter now.

Good Luck,

Matthew

[pete from TN]

Glad to hear you have made it fit, especially a 750 model. I am still unsure of the direction I am going but one way or another I will have a more commercial machine for my shop. I am already seeing some promising responses on the parts I am making so I think I can make a VMC or similar a profitable and fun enterprise. This is not gonna be easy tho and I am in a similar boat to you with the power situation. My current mill is only 3hp 3ph and I am using a sensorless vector drive for it but this is another animal. Most of my shop tools for woodworking are like 5hp single phase. The mill will probably have at least a 7.5hp motor three phase I think so I gotta see what I can make a good deal on and what I can make work for my shop. May take a while... peace

[scudzuki]

750 is longer than a 500, same dimensions in other axes.
My 500 is 98" tall with the travel brace in place, 95" with the z at its lower limit. The cable management is the tallest component, so removing the z servo is one way to shorten it.

Of course I measured it with the machine installed and leveled, so it will be a few inches shorter on a pallet jack or forktruck forks.

Joe