Looking at a used Cinci Arrow 500....

[pete from TN]

Hello guys,
I am trying to get into a used VMC here. I have found a used Cinci 500 local to me that is in pretty good shape. It does have a bad Z axis drive unit in it and the fellow that is selling the machine has bought a beautiful new VMC that is much larger and more powerful so he just wants to sell this machine rather than try to fix it. The machine is under power and can be turned on to check it out. He says it will go right up until the Z axis tries to initialize and then it alarms out. He removed the Z drive and showed me where there are some brown spots on the terminals. I have found out that you can have these drives repaired for around a grand or so from the manufacturer. It has the Control techniques control on it. He has been very forthcoming with any issues the machine has and he has given me the option to repair it where it stands under power in his shop before I buy it as long as I pay for any parts and we would make a contract about this. He seems like a very honest fellow and has some nice equipment in there. He said this machine was his first CNC vmc and he used it for several years to get his business going. He also said he had the Y drive unit repaired about a year or two ago. Right now it is just sitting in his shop and he wants the space.

He has offered it to me for a very low price since it is needing repair and I was just wondering what you guys think about this. Does anyone here have this same machine with the same control? How do you find it? He did say it is 3d capable altho it does not like to run very fast while doing it. I am pretty much gonna pick it up unless you guys tell me it is a problematic or bad machine. It certainly LOOKS to be in good shape and from the looks of the rest of his machines he does not appear to be someone who abuses machinery.

I am also curious as to what you guys are using to power these machines and how much air consumption I can expect with this machine. I have a capable vertical compressor but it is not unlimited. I think it outputs like 13.5scfm at 90 or something like that. Will this be adequate? Anyways, Any and all help or advice would be appreciated. Peace

Pete

[John_B]

I can't speak to the CT control at all, but I would be very leary (sp?) of a machine that you cannot verify the accuracy on. Not saying the guy is crooked, I am just no longer a trusting person. Just getting this machine moved and installed is going to cost you a bit, and if the repair of the Z homing issue doesn't solve all the machine's woes then you'll be in a bad spot. I'd get him to repair the drive first and prove that's all that's wrong!

I've had many of the Arrow's of several sizes all with the A2100 control, and most have been maintenance intensive. You should be fine on air for now, the only thing that uses it is the drawbar and spindle blow out, and if it has linear scales it will use a bit for purge, and some of the Arrow's have a spindle lubricator that uses a small bit of air.

[pete from TN]

Thanks for your comments. I kinda wish it had the acramatic siemens control but it does not. Define maintenance intensive..... Are we talking occasional tinkering or serious issues that cost big money? I can get this machine for a LOW price as it is just sitting right now. I am also leery of picking up someone else's problems but for the price it would be hard to go too far wrong I think. Peace

Pete

[John_B]

I don't know, the Siemens control is no real blessing in my opinion.

The mechanicals that seem to be problematic (again, in my experience) are the tool changer, spindle - belts - drawbar mechanism, linear ways and glass scales. Not necessarily in that order. I have considered yanking that damn umbrella toolchanger and finding another arm style to see about retrofitting.

Lots of other Arrow owners on here, some more should chime in soon.

[pete from TN]

That does not sound too good.... How many cnc's have you had? This is gonna be my first VMC and I do not want to buy a lemon that is for sure. Maybe I need to look elsewhere.... Thanks for your honest input. Peace

Pete

[ihavenofish]

Originally Posted by pete from TN That does not sound too good.... How many cnc's have you had? This is gonna be my first VMC and I do not want to buy a lemon that is for sure. Maybe I need to look elsewhere.... Thanks for your honest input. Peace Pete

ive been looking at used and new vmc's as well. ive seen a number of the cincinati arrows for very low prices. ive sorta decided they are like when the grocery store has everything in the freezer at 75% off..... its not likely for a good reason.

ive got no actual experience with them, but have been offered a few in the low 4 digit price range over the last year.

[underthetire]

Control parts get REAL expensive REAL fast for those. Not a big fan myself, don't like the 2100 either. Cinci did have a small mill with a Fanuc i series for a while that seemed ok.

[pete from TN]

Actually I have spoken to a couple folks who have these machines and they indicated that the parts were not terrible and the factory who makes the CT control at least still supports the drives and parts. They will apparently refurbish your old drives and give you a year warranty for under a grand each...?? What is your direct experience with these machines that makes you say that? Not doubting you just want to hear your views more indepth..peace

Pete

[underthetire]

Used to work for a dealer that sold and services the Cinci's. If you found a place that can repair the control parts at a reasonable cost, thats great. Drives and motors were usually not a problem as much as some of the control boards, CRT's etc., scales were an issue if that one has them as well. I was just never a fan of the Cinci stuff like that, didn't think they were designed as well as other stuff. Figure back in the day, a cinci and a Haas were roughly the same price, now to buy that same machine used, a Haas would be double the used price.

[John_B]

Originally Posted by underthetire Figure back in the day, a cinci and a Haas were roughly the same price, now to buy that same machine used, a Haas would be double the used price.

And for a good reason in my opinion! They're both built about the same, yet the Haas group figured out how to do it in a simple manner. The Cinci group went WAY out of their way to find every gadget and gimmick they could put in it to make your life difficult later.

Pete, somewhere in the upper 20's or so.

[slowlearner]

I own 3 Arrows w/2100's and a Sabre w/850sx . Although the 2100 control is not manufactured anymore, Siemens does support it. Some people will tell you that they loved them. I'll tell you they eat hard-drives.The CT controls I know nothing about and considering the condition I will say. If you can buy it for $1500-$2000 its a good deal. i wouldnt give no more than $4000 for one twice that size. The last vmc I had moved required 2 trucks. 1 for moving the forklift for loading and unloading the machine. The other to haul the machine. Going rate for picking it up, hauling 15 miles and unloading cost me 2K. I'm not trying to scare you. I am only telling you what to expect. You may get lucky and get a real good machine. If the owner was also the sole operator I would expect it to be well maintained. Good luck to you sir.

[Ron P]

Originally Posted by John_B And for a good reason in my opinion! They're both built about the same, yet the Haas group figured out how to do it in a simple manner.

The Cincy line will out cut a Haas hands down, period. Better way systems, screws, servos, accuracy at faster feedrates and more capable CNCs.