So, I bought a big cnc router....

[austin.mn]

Just before christmas I ended up buying a big CNC router. It is a nice unit, vacuum table, ATC, NK260 controller. It seemed like a good deal the only catch.... 380vac spindle. I figured. Hey, the rest of the machine runs on 220, so I will just get a phase converter and a transformer and use that to power the vfd in the cabinet. So, I was all set to order that stuff up, $2500 locally. Then I saw a youtube video of a guy running a 380vac spindle on 220, he was using a huanyang vfd that was 220in and 380out. I didn't even know that they existed. I thought, cool I will find someone selling those and get one ordered up and swap the new VFD in and all will be good.... Ordered it up, a few weeks later it shows up at my door and I finally found some room in my schedule to get this big router up and running. This thing has been taking up room in my shop for 6 months. I was super excited.

I get it mounted start wiring it up... and fire up the new vfd. Go through the manual getting it set up. Set the standard stuff changed the settings to 400hz and output volts to 380. Got into the motor setup and put the info from my spindle in there..... then what the... the spindle is 600hz. I didn't' even know that was a thing. I figured 400hz was standard. Looked at the old vfd that I had pulled from the cabinet it too was a 400hz max unit. So, I guess you can run a 600hz spindle on 400hz... I looked at the manual for the Delta VFD and it doesn't seem to have a way to bump it to 600hz, 400hz is the max. So, a little deeper digging, I found a nice article about running 50hz motors on 60hz and vice versa. It seems that running a 60hz motor on 50hz it will run 20% slower. Ok, but it will also run on less current, and less power and actually need less voltage, otherwise you risk overheating it

So, I reprogrammed the vfd and set the volts to 255 (about 2/3 of 380) then I changed the amps to 8 (2/3 of 12 amps on the spindle) and I changed the KW of the spindle to 3.6 (2/3 of the original 5.5kw) It seemed to work better... but really it still didn't seem to work.

My next idea is to grab the 2.2 kw 220vac freq drive off my bridgeport and see if I can get this spindle chooching with that. I know that it will be drastically underpowered to do much work. but, the alternative is to throw the original freq drive back in the spindle and spend the money on the phase converter and transformer. Even then, I am not so sure about the entire thing working as it was supposed to as the nameplate on that vfd is only 400hz.

So, now you are all wondering... why did you buy that machine to begin with... well long story short... it was cheap.. well not really cheap, still pretty expensive, but it was cheaper than it would have been had I ordered it new. The company I have purchased other machines through is an importer of machines from china. They ordered this machine for another customer. He backed out of the deal when his electrician told him he wouldn't hook up a 380vac machine. So, they had to refund him his money, They were short on cash, so I bought the machine from them so they could refund him. I got it here, was too busy to do anything with it, and it turned into a big expensive work bench. I would like to start using though, as I have some projects in mind. I don't really like the option of the phase converter, and the next option is to order up a 220vac spindle and another new vfd. They do make this exact same machine in a 220vac single phase version (why they didn't order that to begin with is beyond me). But, it looks like $3200 for the spindle... and then another $500 for another new vfd.

Its kind of been a pain in the ass, and I really shouldn't have bought the machine, as I didn't need to have it taking up space in the shop... but since it's here and already bought, I had better figure out a way to get it up and running enough to pay for itself.

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[ger21]

The frequency controls the speed, so the max rpm you'll be able to get is 2/3 of the spindles max. So if it's an 18,000 rpm spindle, it'll only run at 12,000 when you set the VFD to 400Hz.
You should still be running it at full voltage and amps, though.

[NIC 77]

That is alot of info to take in all at once, but I'm glad you posted!

I also have a 380V spindle that I plan on running on 220V.

But I don't plan to run it on a 220V to 380V VFD. Just a 220V VFD, and use the VFD to convert to 3 phase.

Yep, you have more poles in your motor so 400Hz isn't enough. I was looking at that brand of 220V VFD on EBay (so not that particular model). In the description it said up to 400 Hz, but then in the description below that it said 1000Hz. No idea which one was correct. It turns out that some VFD's, in particular the Yaskawa brand can change the max output frequency with a software update. No idea how you would get this update.

I need more info, and pictures. In particular, what kind of spindle is it? We need to try and find a power curve for it. Also, we need to find the normal amp draw at 380V along the speed range. You'd want to run on the same amps you'd run at for 380 volts and for the first part of the speed range you should get the same performance until you hit the point where the v/f curve where the voltage hits 220V. Then I assume the power will flat line at that point.

Where is this video on youtube? Link please.

Also, please search for and read a thread called "questions about motor performance and voltage on 3 phase induction motors" on a site that rhymes with mractical pachinist before responding.

Not sure what the forum rules are about posting links to competing forums . That should CMA.

[austin.mn]

Here is the link to the youtube video with the 220/380 vfd


The spindle is a 120td18z5.5av

They do make it as a 220vac spindle. Though, I am trying to find something that is 400hz

[Mark756616866]

WEIHONG NK260?

[austin.mn]

The freq drive on my bridgeport was only a 1.5kw unit. I still tried it... but it only ran for a half a second. Though, I didn't really spend any time programming it. I only changed the frequency up to 400hz. So, it may have worked if I had put more time in it.

In other news. I finally hooked air up to the big router table. I hadn't ever done that... it was pissing air out a screw hole in the lower front of the spindle. I thought, wow that is a lot of air coming out. So, I found and m5 and plugged it. Then it was pissing air out around the bottom of the spindle. Much less air though, so it may just be a way to mitigate dust getting into the bearings. Then I put a toolholder into it. Which, actually worked just fine. It was a little slow. I was expecting it to eject and retract a bit quicker. Still pissed air out of the bottom. Still hoping to get this thing working at least enough to cut something with it before I throw anymore money at it. Anyone else have one of those spindles? Is the air leaking out the bottom normal?

[austin.mn]

yes, WEIHONG NK260. From the little playing with it that I did. It seemed to work fine and wasn't too difficult to understand.

[NIC 77]

The spindle is a 120td18z5.5av

I'm trying to figure out if something is wrong with the current input. Is that this is an 18 Amp spindle?. Hence 120td18z5 as opposed to 120td12z5. Let's assume it's 12 Amp input, as is indicated here:

https://czchanglong.en.alibaba.com/p..._spindle_.html

So how about we get it working correctly to 12K RPM before worrying about 18K? I don't see why you can't do this right now. I haven't seen a graph published, but my guess is, based on other similar looking Chinese spindles, is that this is a straight line from zero to 380V on the V/f curve.

So at 0 Hz (or RPM), it's at 0 volts, and at 380V at 18K RPM (or 600 Hz). Does that sound right to you? Not just a single value input, but a slanted line that needs to be inputted into the VFD.

I'd try using the line at these points for the V/f curve input on your VFD. (0V,0Hz) (253V, 400Hz). Limited to 12 Amps, also via the VFD. The 8 Amp limit you used before is an error.

Try that and see how it goes. If this doesn't work, then perhaps it's broken, or you have a setting off somewhere in your VFD. There's no reason I can think of that this shouldn't work to 12K RPM.

They do make it as a 220vac spindle. Though, I am trying to find something that is 400hz

I suspect it is the same spindle but connected in Delta as opposed to Star. You'd have to double check this because you don't want to push more current through than it can handle. Some spindles allow you to change the connections on the outside using either 220V or 380V (Delta or Star). It may or may not be a simple case of opening it up and changing a few wire connections. I don't know. And the 220V model only needs 300Hz.

I think you can sort this out.

[austin.mn]

I hope that your right. I will give it a shot in the morning.
So I will set the KW to 3.6, Amps to 12, Volts to 253 and frequency max to 400. I want to say that I have already tried that... but maybe I haven't.... I have been going back and forth with all the setting so many times today.

If I don't get something to work soon, I may try popping the top off the spindle and see if there is anyway to change the wiring there.

[austin.mn]

So, we are getting closer. I set everything as stated above. It ran for a bit. I also set the slope with a max of 253v 400Hz.

Then I changed the motor current to 10 amps. It ran for about ten seconds and got an OL1
So, I bumped the current to 14 amps and it ran for a solid minute and then gave me an OL1

But it ran for a solid MINUTE. so at least we are seeing some progress. It also seemed that when I was running it at 15hz I would OL1 much quicker than when I ran at 350hz. I also finally turned on my water pump. It was a little warm at first, not hot or anything, just above room temp. After running for a minute the temp cooled off a bit.

The air pissing out the bottom of the spindle is a concern. I have a little 2hp compressor and it cannot keep up. after about 3 minutes of running it was down to 55psi

[ger21]

If it's a water cooled spindle, no air should be coming out of the spindle.
Also, you really shouldn't be trying to run that spindle much below 100-150Hz. 100Hz is 3000 rpm.

[NIC 77]

So, we are getting closer. I set everything as stated above. It ran for a bit. I also set the slope with a max of 253v 400Hz.

Then I changed the motor current to 10 amps. It ran for about ten seconds and got an OL1
So, I bumped the current to 14 amps and it ran for a solid minute and then gave me an OL1

The current that is set in the VFD is the maximum current the VFD will supply. I assume you weren't doing any cuts? If you look at the video, the maximum amp draw from that spindle is about 3.6 Amps for the cutting it was doing. At least I think that this is what the display was showing.

Have you looked at what actual Amp draw you are getting when the thing is running? There should be some option to display that. If you're pulling full amps when not cutting then something is very wrong. How does it sound?

We could have made a mistake in the V/f curve. I only assumed that it was a straight line to 18000 RPM. Most HSD spindles for example, max out at 12000 RPM. If this was an HSD spindle that we didn't have a graph for, I would have said to try 380V, 400hz (for 12000 RPM) as the second point with the limit to 12 Amps. In this case the third point would be 380V, 600Hz if you could go that high. I'm not saying to do this, only that we assumed what the V/f curve was and still don't actually know.

The air pissing out the bottom of the spindle is a concern. I have a little 2hp compressor and it cannot keep up. after about 3 minutes of running it was down to 55psi

I don't know anything about that. I did a quick search online, and for some spindles this is normal and they even add lubrication oil to the air......I hope the spindle I have doesn't do this.......but as Ger points out, this is a water cooled spindle. Having never owned a water cooled spindle, I can't comment further.

I found this video. There is so much background noise it's hard to tell, but it seems to me like the sound of air coming out stops when a new tool is inserted?

[NIC 77]

So if you go to this link:

5.5KW 18000rpm 220V Water Cooling ATC Spindle Motor for Machining Center Changsheng 120TD18Z5.5A [120TD18Z5.5A 220v] - US$3,150.00 : Fast To Buy Limited

and you scroll all the way to the bottom of it. You will see the inlet and outlet ports are labelled. There are 3 air ports that I can tell. It says "Tool exchange and dust removal" I'm guessing that means the third port is for "dust removal". Could this explain the air coming out of the bottom?

If I were you I'd write this seller a message and ask him for a user manual for this spindle, or at the very least to tell you the settings for a VFD or at what RPM it peaks at 5.5 kw. He sells them, so I assume he will know. Easy to contact sellers on aliexpress, just make an account and send him a message.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/380v...653637887.html

[battwell]

hi Austin
Weird re email bouncing- I'm receiving email correctly!
It's my machine in the video
Brendon

[austin.mn]

When I get back over to the shop tonight I will bring a camera along. Not all the ports on the top of the spindle are filled with hoses. There are two that have nothing in them. I will also check the amps that the vfd is displaying when running it.

[battwell]

It's normally 100psi to operate the tool release draw bar and 60psi as cone clean pressure- to be applied when the draw bar is open.

That's normally all that is required

Some spindles also use low pressure air approx 40 psi to positive pressurise bearings so no dust can get into them.

[battwell]

Send me an email to brendonbod@icloud.com
See if that gets through

[austin.mn]

I will have to pull the cover off the Z axis of the router and see if there is a secondary regulator. I don't think there is one. I am also seeing that if I am to continue trying to get the new VFD to work better on the router I will need to change some more wiring. As I was starting to see the spindle work a little more than just a minute yesterday, I was having some intermitent problems with the contactors loosing power. I thought about it for a minute, then I thought, Oh yeah, that makes sense. This thing was wired to run 380 volts through 3 wires, I am now trying to run all the same stuff on 220 using only 2 wires. So, not only am I running twice the current, I am also trying to squeeze twice the current through less wire. So, I am starting to think I am going to just order up the rotary phase converter and transformer. Then I will continue running the main motor drives, and controller with the single phase 220, and then run the old VFD that came with the machine which should already be programmed to run correctly, with the phase converter/transformer combo. Its more money, but it should run just fine if I do that, the spindle should run full speed, assuming the vfd has actually been flashed to run 600hz.

Anyone wanna buy a 7.5kw 220 to 380 vfd?

[NIC 77]

I thought, Oh yeah, that makes sense. This thing was wired to run 380 volts through 3 wires, I am now trying to run all the same stuff on 220 using only 2 wires. So, not only am I running twice the current, I am also trying to squeeze twice the current through less wire.

What are the specs on that VFD? Does it list single phase input? If it says specifically that it's for use with single phase input, then it should still give up to 7.5kw output, 3 phase. Although, with it being a less expensive Chinese VFD, I would ask the manufacturer if that still holds true.

To my knowledge, almost all VFDs will convert single phase to three phase even if it is not listed on the label. The problem there is that it needs to take in more current from the single phase through two inputs instead of three, so you need to upsize the VFD in order to accommodate more current on the input side . So 1.73 x the normal input current, people usually say just double it for the VFD input specs. The incoming AC is converted to DC then back to AC three phase. As I said, I don't think you need to do this if it lists single phase input in the VFD specs, but always good to ask the manufacturer.

In your shoes I would absolutely not buy a rotary phase converter. Because if the VFD you have does indeed accept single phase input per the specs, there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get that spindle you have running to 12K RPM properly, unless you have a problem with the spindle, in which case the money is better spent on a new 220V spindle IMO. Perhaps one that's wired in Delta or has fewer poles, in which case you could use the same VFD you have now.

And even if you get it working and decide you need more Hz, you could probably get a used 380V ISO transformer and an oversized 380V VFD. I have seen a few used 20HP 380-480V VFDs on EBay for around $400.

IMO, a rotary converter is what you get when you have a shop with a bunch of different stuff that is 3 phase and not controlled by individual VFDs. Like pumps, compressors, and motors for constant speed industrial type things.

Are you certain that you have hooked up the L1, L2, L3 and ground correctly? Have you asked about the power curve? Could this be because of some small messed up setting in the VFD? All questions we don't know the answers to.

Even in the video from batwell, it says right on it, that he's using 220V single phase.

So for example, 12 Amps 3phase at 380 Volts equates to 20.76 Amps 380 Volts single phase or 36 Amps 220V, assuming perfect efficiency, which it won't be. I've heard that if you upsize the VFD for the phase conversion the inrush current for the capacitors could be more. I don't know how much of an effect this could have. What is the capacity of your 220V single phase source?

Anyone wanna buy a 7.5kw 220 to 380 vfd?

I think you should hold onto it until you have this sorted out, but sure, I'd consider it. Do you have a link to the specific model?

[austin.mn]

I have no doubt that I could get this unit working properly, up to 12k rpm. My real problem is time. I just don't have much. I have my own business and it is just the wife and I at the moment. So, we both work from the time we get up to the time we go to bed. This morning I left for the shop at 7:30am and I just got home now, at 11:30pm. The rest of the week is going to be the same, and we are just getting into our busy summer season. Once I get this machine going I really won't be able to spend a whole lot of time playing with it until sept/oct, Then we will get into our christmas rush Nov/Dec. Then I will get to play with it again in January.

Our business is Custom Metal Signs and Metal Wall Art – Refined Inspirations, Inc.
Our website isn't fully stocked with all the sign styles we do, but we also sell on Etsy and Custom made. I would like to start incorporating some wood into some sign ideas that I have. So, I could have some 3d relief carvings, that I would keep the router cutting during the day. Do a little cleanup on them and stain them at night, then mount a custom metal sign to them and send them out the door. I think that it would be a cool unique item that not many other shops could do.

The building that I am in does have 3phase in it... just not in my section. I have asked an electrician about putting a subpanel in my are and he could get it done, and it wasn't even going to be super expensive, but we may be moving to another part of the building soon. So, that is why I thought just getting a rotary phase converter would solve the problem in the short term. Plus I could always use the rotary in my home shop down the road if we move to the other section of the building.

The electrical cabinet for the router is wired with 12g wire throughout, which at a little over 20 amps is fine, but going up to 36, I think that is were I am seeing a problem. So, to keep the new vfd in the cabinet I would want to install some heavier wire in there. Not too big of a deal, and 3 years ago I would have done just that. But, my option now is to call up the local electrical supply guy and have him put together a package for me that I can just plug in and have it work.