New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak


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Thread: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

  1. #1

    Default New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    So far not much to report. I originally wanted one and had money lined up for it a year ago, but I couldn't get one. Then Charter Oak became one of the dealers for Syil a while back. I worked out a deal with Paul and Tony for a machine and it arrived earlier this week. So far I have only uncrated it and moved it to the back of the shop approximately where its permanent home will be. I didn't get the super duper package with the fancy enclosure, but I didn't get the base model either. So far I am modestly impressed. My initial impressions were off the charts, but I figured I better calm down before starting a thread on the machine.

    I only have a couple criticisms so far. Of course until I power it up (later today or possibly tomorrow) I won't have anything substantial to say.

    There is an air fitting on the back of the spindle for blowing chips clear. I am not sure of the details of how it works but I expect most users really will not need it. Maybe it would be useful for plastics if cut unlubricated. I think it should come plugged or with an airline that goes to the back of the machine so it can't get filled with chips in case at a later time they decide they do need it. I have plenty of air line laying around, so I will plumb it to the back of the machine. I may even have a spare solenoid valve around somewhere I can install so using it or not using it will simply be a matter of flicking a switch.

    Filling the coolant tanks is a bit awkward. There are two tanks inside the stand. One is coolant for the high speed spindle, and the other is for cutting coolant . lubricant. They are accessed through a screwed on panel on the back of the stand. This means you need to place the machine far enough away from a wall or out of a corner that you can access that periodically. There is a nice drain in the pan with a screen cover, but I've been machining long enough to know that fines will settle in the sump over time and need to be cleaned out once in a while. Of course you will also need to add coolant from time to time. You can pour it in the chip pan, but you need to be able to see the level in the tank. I may add an external sight tube at some point.

    The Mach3 XML file I received says 25 i/s/s. If it will really do that day in day out this may become my most productive machine even considering its miniscule working envelope. I am not counting on it though. Still the high speed spindle will allow for faster feed rates when doing fine detail work. Atleast in theory.

    Well out to the shop now so I can get some work done instead of just talking about it.

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    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  2. #2

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    I got the machine powered up on Saturday. I have not cut any jobs on it. Seems to mostly work as expected. Coolant, spindle control, etc. I may do some torture testing today with a couple dial indicators clamped to the table.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  3. #3
    Member tmarks11's Avatar
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    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    Thanks for the review. Pictures, please!

    Tim
    Tormach 1100-3 mill, Grizzly G0709 lathe, PM935 mill, SolidWorks, HSMWorks.


  4. #4

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    Well, I didn't like the included splash guard so I made my own. Then I ran into an issue with the electrical and spindle coolant lines that came into the side of the head hitting my new splash guard. I wound up moving it to the top of the head.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150609_104031-jpg   New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150617_091714-jpg   New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150617_094410-jpg   New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150617_204446-jpg  

    New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150618_122821_resized-jpg   New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150619_134433_resized-jpg   New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150625_150254-jpg  
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Well, I didn't like the included splash guard so I made my own. Then I ran into an issue with the electrical and spindle coolant lines that came into the side of the head hitting my new splash guard. I wound up moving it to the top of the head.
    I cut one little job on it so far. I made the finish cuts for an Infinity Vise in place on the table. I decided I need to improve the cutting coolant flow. Mostly get rid of the plastic ball valves, and install some more free flowing valves that are less likely to chip clog.


    I'll post some pics later.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150705_205202-jpg   New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak-20150710_104247-jpg  
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  6. #6
    Member arizonavideo's Avatar
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    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    Nice holding setup.

    Is that mighty bighty clamps on one side and then a block on the other?

    youtube videos of the G0704 under the name arizonavideo99


  7. #7

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    Actually no. Those are not Might Bites. Those are Tiny Vise clamps from Carr Lane. The principle is so simple almost any of us could make them, and then case harden them, but they are cheap enough its not really a fiscally responsible choice.

    Carr Lane Tiny Vise Edge Clamp CL 5 TV | eBay

    You should be able to figure out how they work just from looking at the pictures, but basically the cone of the counter sunk head machine screw and the cone washer below push on the countersink in the top and bottom of the block to pull it down and forward when you tighten the bolt.

    P.S. I think I like them better for what I do than I would Might Bites.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  8. #8

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    I have completed 6 small single cavity master molds with the X4 now.

    1. It has only faulted on me one time. I overloaded the spindle. My fault remedied code and all is good.
    2. It has only one significant failure. The coolant pump quit working. It turned out to be the control. Not the pump. I pulled the control relay so I wouldn't accidentally get voltage on the leads to the lower cabinet, and put a cord with a regular 110V plug on the pump. Now I just control it with the valve like I do on my big mill.
    3. I've only had one issue with the vendor. I keep asking how much for a replacement spindle, because I know I'll wear this one out as hard as I plan to push it. I still don't know. (To be fair they are moving into a new shop.)

    I am currently cutting a larger 6 cavity mold on the machine. I'll have another report soon.

    So, far... I would buy another of this machine. I wish they made it with just a little bit larger working envelope and an ER16 instead of an ER11 spindle. I would have already bought one.

    Last edited by Bob La Londe; 08-03-2015 at 03:41 PM.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  9. #9

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    A little update. I never did go back and figure out the problem with the coolant pump I'm still old schooling it by just turning it on and off with a valve. It works fine, and I don't mind except maybe for a little lost coolant from evaporation while I am too busy with something to get to a tool change or to shut it off at the end right away. Still I am sure that is much less than the coolant lost from cutting heat. Its the same way I manage coolant on my big Hurco mill. Eventually I'll get back to it.

    I had a little problem with perpendicularity of X&Y though. My first few parts were pretty small so I just wrote it off to the cumulative affects of tool flex, backlash, run out, and the "whatever" factor. When I made a bigger part I could clearly see the problem. I did several test cuts and then contacted Charter Oak. We did some back and forth to make sure I wasn't doing anything wrong, and then Charter Oak was all over it demanding almost right way that Syil send me a new saddle. I'm not sure, but I think they even threatened to stall current orders if this issue was not taken care of quickly. Syil was slightly resistant at first, but I sent them a video proving it wasn't an adjustment issue and they sent me a new saddle directly from China. They must have sent it air freight because it arrived in just a couple days. It took me a few more days to tackle the change out, but it went pretty easily. It seems like Syil uses some "machine to fit" methods for their final assembly. There is nothing wrong with that if everything is good, but it does add some minor challenges to changing out a major component. I was able to make a few tiny mods, and get it all assembled. Paul was very very pro-active about getting me to that point. The machine is very reliably ripping along at 150 IPM and 25iss without faults. I just finished three complex molds without a single fault from the machine. I just finished one that was a little over 5 hours per plate.

    There were some things I noted about the machine I really liked. It has oil lines to everywhere I would like them to go if I built the machine. I really liked their flex plate connector for the stepper motor. I've always felt those would be better than helical couplers for backlash, have less wear than oldham connectors, and would be less complex and have less wear or backlash than belt drives. My Hurco KMB1 has a flex plate connector on the one axis that is direct drive.

    Now to the actual problem. Over a distance of six inches the machine would be off perpendicular almost 0.018". That was pretty horrific. After I installed the new saddle I did a square cut test of about 5 inches. With a machinist square up against the cut held firmly but not hard (you know what I mean if you have done this sort of stuff) I couldn't get a .0015 feeler gage to go behind the blade anywhere even enough to feel sticky. I jammed the gauge down firmly and repeatedly all along the blade. Since the max I can get out of this machine (I tweaked it) is 6.7 by 11.6 that pretty darn good.

    My opinion. I think somebody at Syil made an uncharacteristic mistake. They didn't seem to believe me at first, but when they reviewed my test video they sent me a replacement part almost instantly. That kind of backs up that opinion. The new saddle was a little different than the old saddle. Even though it wasn't drilled and tapped for way covers or sensor cams it looked more "finished." The old saddle had a bad grind in one dovetail. When I ran my hand down it I felt it instantly. I think it was a reject that somebody installed by mistake. I think that's also why it might not have looked as finished as the new saddle. There were some other indicators that may have been the case as well. It was not the norm.

    I don't know how the experience would have gone if I had dealt directly with Syil, but by dealing with them through Charter Oak they were pretty darn good about taking care of the problem, and I have a machine that has been cranking out cash parts ever since. I can't thank Paul enough for his help, and now we both have confidence again in Syil machines for the future. I think if the Syil Speedmasters were a little bigger I'ld certainly have them high up on my list for future purchases. I've heard people say about various machines in the past that they are pretty good "for the price." Well this little X4 speedmaster is also pretty good for the price. Its not the high speed demon of a Datron, or the heavy cutter of Haas or Fadal, but for light fast cutting its pretty darn good.

    I think for those looking for the next step up from a Taig this would be the ticket for high speed aluminum. Similar work envelope. Faster spindle. More accurate positioning with less backlash with less (almost none) adjustment and with automatic lubrication. At $6.9K you might argue its not a small step up. If you consider what it would take to make a Taig perform similarly its not as a big of a step as you might think. I know you can buy a Taig for about a grand or a little less bare, or you can buy one almost ready to cut (no computer or software or motion control card or coolant setup or chip pan or stand or VFD spindle or ... you get the point) for about $1.8K. I used to tell people I could probably make my Taig into a decent little beast for a net cost of $4-5K. That doesn't account for a lot of labor or time. I have to add a caveat though. The X4 Speedmaster spindle really isn't worth much under 13-14K RPM. I know their spec says it runs at lower speeds, but practice has shown me it has next to no torque at lower speeds. The Taig's little belt drive actually has more Torque then the belt friction can hold with its constant speed AC motor. I think the simplicty of the Taig spindle has its advantages.

    I would note for those who don't know. The Speedmasters only have an ER11 collet spindle. Its not as big of a limitation as you might think. A 1/4 end mill can remove a lot of material at those speeds. You just have to change your thinking from heavy hogging to very light fast cutting. They rate it as 1HP, but I don't think it really does 1HP. I'm not really upset with that. The majority of my work with it calculates out at tiny fractional horsepower. It bites me sometimes on the initial plunge of a complex 3D pocket/cavity, but planning allows me to do some amazing material removal with very small cutters if I do my part in CAM.

    I would note that I have an X4 Speedmaster. It has dovetail ways. The X5 speed master has linear bearing/rail ways. The reason I went with the X4 over the X5 is that the X4 advertises 6.3 inches in Y travel and the X5 advertises 5.3 inches in Y travel. I do a lot of molds in 1/2" x 6" bar stock. I just finished a 6x11 low pressure mold yesterday. I'll probably test it today or tomorrow.

    Two more notes. Check the machine settings in Mach 3. Most things were good, but they had steps per inch set at 10180.xxxxx . (I forget exactly.) My math said they should be set at 10160. If they did a calibration over just one inch they could have come up with the number they used because it comes out to about .0019 difference in distance over 1 inch. If you assume some imperfect setup in your indicator, a tiny bit of backlash, and maybe some other unknown factors its not hard to get .0019 mistake in measurement. I did a couple slow 6x6 cuts and my dimensions were all within .001 when I set the steps to 10160. Also, make sure to check your jog controls for some reason the keyboard scan codes for jogging were reversed in X & Y.

    I haven't played with calibration of the spindle because I mostly just use it at its highest speeds. Even with a 1/4 end mill. I just accept that I may get some increased cutter wear for not feeding as fast as my calculator says I should. I have requested an HP and torque curve graph for he spindle from Syil, but its entirely possible they just don't have one.

    Overall I am pretty happy with the machine.

    Last edited by Bob La Londe; 10-16-2015 at 10:43 AM.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  10. #10

    Default

    I really need to make a video of this machine doing its job. It just burned thru two more 3D jobs today. No surprises.



  11. #11

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    Nearly two months since I last posted about this machine. Its currently cranking out parts, and its got more to cut as fast as I can get the CAD and CAM done. It is very definitely paying for itself. I don't think there is another machine in its price range that can match it for high speed 3D work in aluminum. I am so happy (yes it had some issues) with it that I am planning to get more machines from Syil through Charter Oak. Paul and I are talking about options to extend the Y on the X5 to match the X4. If we can do that I plan to buy two (2) X5 Speedmasters in the Pro Setup with Enclosure. If not I'll get two more X4 Speedmasters, but in the Pro setup.

    "Hey, Bob is buying more of these machines. He must be pretty happy with them."

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  12. #12

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    I haven't even ordered them officially yet (well I didn't give Paul any money yet anyway), and I am already getting anxious. Most of this morning I had the Syil running continuously, the Hurco KMB1 running almost continuously, had the bandsaw cutting blanks, and in the brief moments when I had a pause I was radius cutting the ends of alignment pins on the small lathe. Its kinda neat. Almost a Zen state to be standing there working, and have four machines working for you at the same time. I was on my 20th or 30th pin when I could almost imagine the sound of two more Syils turning big pieces of aluminum into small pieces of aluminum.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  13. #13

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    I sent off my deposit check last week. I ordered 2 X5s and paid a little extra for extended rails on Y so I can cut a similar envelope to the X4. Paul looked over a regular speed X5 he had in his shop and determined there was no reason longer rails could not be installed. I ordered the PRO version of the X5 Speedmaster so hopefully I can have them up and running quicker.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  14. #14

    Default VIDEO ADDED: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    I originally cut this mold on a MxNC5 with a wood router for a spindle, and it took 4 hrs per side. Look at the elapsed time near the end of the video cutting it optimized for the Syl X4 Speedmaster.



    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  15. #15

    Default Re: New X4 Speedmaster From Charter Oak

    I lost a spindle a while back. It started making noise and I finished the immediate jobs and shut it down.

    It may be partly my fault. I should have been more insistent about getting answers. There is a small air fitting on the side of the spindle. I asked, "What exactly is that for?" a couple times, but never got a good answer. Well after killing the spindle nose bearing (there is just one) and asking around other places I can now tell you. It is an air inlet for an air seal. If you want to be sure to keep chips and coolant out of your spindle you put 15-20 PSI constant air pressure into that fitting.

    Well, I figured whatever the cost I'd just get a new spindle to get the machine back in service and then worry about opening up the old spindle later. No go. Just couldn't get feedback quickly enough and I had jobs stacking up. I decided to just order one directly from somebody. No go. The ONLY 110V 62mm spindle I found was an old no longer available listing on AliExpress or Alibaba. I needed to to get the machine going quickly so instead I decided to order any 62mm spindle I could find, and just throw a 220V VFD on the machine to run it. I finally found one for almost $500 (479) and had it shipped from China. Then I ordered a Hitachi 110Vin/220Vout VFD from Drives Warehouse. I took me a day to install the new spindle and VFD, and install an electric solenoid valve along with a filter regulator to feed into the new spindle. I had to call the guys at Drives Warehouse to get the VFD settings right, and one of the guys called me back from home in the evening and walked me through it. Its running like a champ.

    I've since opened up the old spindle and I didn't really find signs of intrusion in the bearing, but the resin/plastic bearing carrier in the nose bearing was broken. I got part numbers of the bearings and have new ones sitting on my desk. I'd really like to find the correct size pin wrench to put it back together, but I can do it with a hammer and a punch if I have to.

    I noticed the noise in the spindle at about 1000 hrs of run time I am guessing. My console said 750, but I had reset it a couple months after moving that computer to that machine. The machine spends very littel time powered up that it isn't running. I like to drop out of Mach and shut down the mill anytime Its going to be a little while if for not other reason than to save way oil when the machine is idle.

    Overall I still really like the machine. On small cutter milling in aluminum it totally smokes anything else I've had, and if I had known what that air fitting was for when I first setup the machine in my shop I might still be using the original spindle.

    I so can't wait for my two new X5s to get here. You don't know how high my panic level was while the X4 spindle was down.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


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