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  1. #141
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    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Well handlewanker, when you get your new machine, I'll definitely be watching for your progress with it. I hope you will document everything like Bob is doing. I subscribed to this thread and a Tormach and a Novakon one, so I can see where the short comings are before I decide which one to drop my money on. Because of the honesty of these machine owners, I can make a more informed decision and of what to expect.
    Nothing personal.



  2. #142

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    I look at this as a run what you brung kind of situation. When the wife and I used to do motorcycle rallies I used to ride in all the bike games. My full dress 80" bagger was no match for a chopped out rigid with a 100" STD and a 250 on the back in a normal drag race. Heck he would be across the line before I made my first gear change. But in a 20/40? yard dirt drag or an old man's home on hard pack all I needed was to keep her from spinning to badly on the launch to beat a lot of guys, and I ran the bike I rode in on.

    Well, this is the bike I got, and I ain't buying a new one real soon.

    Last edited by Bob La Londe; 07-13-2014 at 03:09 PM.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  3. #143

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    I have come up with the practical solution autowanker should have come up with for all his experience if he hadn't been so focused on his message of doom and gloom.

    First off I want to iterate that I have not checked the column for squareness to the table Its not hard. I just haven't done it.

    If shimming the base of the column turns out to the proper permanent solution the answer is quite simple and easily done on the machine itself. Mill a steel plate the same dimension as the base of the column. 1/4 - 3/8 woud be fine, but if table to head distance is not an issue for the work you do you could go thicker. Mill one surface as close to perfectly flat and smooth as you can get, flip the piece and mill it so it has the same slope as the shim stack I am currently using. The exact method will vary depending on whether or not the column is shimmed or not when you make the sloped cut. Then slot some bolt holes and you are done. Lift the column off the mill with a shop crane or cherry picker, slap the plate in between and bolt it down. If any additional shims are require to dial it in just right they can go between the steel plate and the base, so the feet of the column is always fully supported.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  4. #144

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Well, my practical solution is no less valid if that were the problem, but it is not. I did a lot of hard work for nothing by tilting the column to tram the mill. The column is probably pretty close to square in its original configuration.

    I finally did the easy check I should have done first. I got out my big Brown & Sharpe machinist square and set it on the table. When I slid up against the column it overlapped the dovetail face by about 5 inches. I was able to slide 6 .002" shims under the end, but not 7.

    Now for the math.

    My original out of tram was .008 over 3 inches. I guestimated 6 inches as my length for tramming the column and installed .016 of shims. It came out within a couple tenths of tram. Now if I work backwards using a triangle calculator I get an angle of apx .15279. If I plug in a length of 5 and an angle of .15279 I get .0133.

    If I didn't mess that up it seems like the column was nearly dead nuts on and the head is where the tram problem in Y is really located. Oops. Now for the embarrassing part. Tony with Charter Oak told me if I wasn't planning to tilt the head (which I am not) I should shim the head, not the column. He said most folks got better results that way.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  5. #145

    Default Boy Do I Feel Silly

    If anything I have to shim the column a couple 3-4 thousandths in the opposite direction to square it to the table. LOL.

    Then I have to figure out how to shim the head. Maybe a U shaped shim stock cut to go around the bottom collar bolt?

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  6. #146
    Member arizonavideo's Avatar
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    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Yes A U shaped shim under the collar.

    Also in the long run replace the three collar bolts as the stock ones don't have a shoulder and will chip the casting. A shoulder bolt milled down and into a oval works well.

    youtube videos of the G0704 under the name arizonavideo99


  7. #147

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    For now I used cheap feeler gages from Harbor Freight. The lady who showed me where they were kind of looked at me funny when I bought 5 of them. LOL. Its a guess and by gosh process, and I found you have to shim in two places. At the bottom and half that amount just under the side bolts. Its kind of a tedious process. I break loose the nuts, lower the head onto a stack of 2x4s, and then loosen them some more. To open a crack to work I then lower the head a little more.

    FYI. A couple 1/4 x 3/4 cylindrical rare earth magnets worked great to hold the side shims in place while I was working. I popped rivets through the screw hole on the bottom shims so they would hook inside the groove while I slowly raise the head and tightened the nuts. Then while they were still loose just before they got it tight I lifted them slightly so the head of the rivet wouldn't throw off my shim value.

    If I didn't use the side shims the casting distorted enough that the math for the shim values didn't come out right when I tightened the bolts.

    I've got it down to .001 over 3 inches to the table in Y. Good enough for now. When I decide exactly what I want it to do with it I should be able to get it better. Nice thing about using feeler gages is I don't have to remember what the the thickness of my shims is. They're marked. LOL.

    Changing out the bolts huh? Sounds like a major job. Sounds like I would need to completely remove the head to do that. Well, I do have a cherry picker that would supsend it. I would think a square shoulder flange head bolt would be ideal. Maybe something like a carriage bolt if they weren't dead soft. I do have some 1144 around somewhere. It makes dandy bolts.

    Last edited by Bob La Londe; 07-15-2014 at 11:03 AM.
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  8. #148
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  9. #149
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    Post

    I AM GLAD TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO INTRODUCE OURSELVES AS ONE OF THE LEADING SUPPLIERS OF Precision Bearings use for CNC and Machine tool ,AND Radial-Axial bearings WHICH ARE MAKE OF Wafangdian Tianjiu Bearings Technology Co.,Ltd.

    WE ARE IN THIS BUSINESS SINCE LAST FIFTEEN YEARS; IN THIS SPAN OF TIME WE HAVE SUPPLIED PRECISION IN ALMOST ALL THE CONTINENTS OF THE WORLD.

    BESIDES, WE DEVELOP HIGH-PRECISION YRT ROTATED BEARINGS, MACHINE TOOL MAINSHAFT BEARINGS AND MOTOR PRECISION BEARINGS. THE PRECISIONS OF OUR BEARINGS HAVE REACHED LEVELS OF P5, SP, P4 AND UP.

    FEATURED BY HIGH PRECISION, LOW NOISE, HIGH ROTARY SPEED, HIGH QUALITY AND LONG SERVICE LIFE, OUR PRODUCTS SAVE USERS’ COST AND SHORTEN PURCHASE TERM. WIDELY APPLIED TO COMMON MACHINE TOOLS, CNC MACHINE TOOLS, LARGE / MIDDLE MOTORS, PRECISION ROLLING MILLS, ETC., OUR PRODUCTS FILLED THE DOMESTIC BLANKS AND CAN SUBSTITUTE IMPORTED PRODUCTS.

    THIS IS TO INFORM YOU THAT WE HAVE PRECISION BEARINGS AND OTHER GOOD QUALITY BEARINGS AVAILABLE, CAN SUPPLY FOR YOU WITH BEST QUALITY.

    WE HOPE CAN CORPORATION WITH YOUR COMPANY.

    WE CAN SUPPLY OUR BEST PRODUCTS FOR YOU.

    THANK YOU !

    REGARDS?

    --------------------------
    Lixingwen?????
    Wafangdian Tianjiu Bearings Technology Co.,Ltd.
    (Wafangdian Heavy Bearings Researching & Manufacturing Co.,Ltd.)
    Brand?WZFB
    Web: ??????????????? ????????????????
    Tel: 0411-85366785
    Fax: 0411-85366785
    Mobile:+86-15942617721
    E-mail:lixingwen@wzfb.com
    Q Q : 178702120
    Skype: lixingwen1987

    Do our best to give customer best service.



  10. #150
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    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Bob,

    I've read your entire thread and I greatly appreciate you documenting your non-biased and in-depth experiences with the Charter Oak CNC! I've been looking to purchase my first CNC for a few years now and I'm still stuck deciding between a Tormach PCNC 1100 and a Charter Oak "Turnkey" CNC. While I like Charter Oak's larger working envelope, higher motor HP (going with the belt-drive), and all-axis servos, I also appreciate Tormach's thorough on-line videos and documentation (machine dimension drawings, .igs/step models of the mill, table, and base, exploded part views, setup manuals, etc.) and "ease of setup". Both the mills are in my price range and unfortunately I don't know enough about CNC mills to know what to look for in larger used CNC mills as others have advised in this thread.

    With the challenges you've experienced setting up / tramming Charter Oak's CNC mill, may I ask if you would do it all over again and if not, what would have been your alternate CNC mill choice?



  11. #151

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    I would also consider Novakon.

    I have fought with stepper based machines for years, and any new machine I buy or build is going to be servo driven. I read Tormach's white paper, and I feel that all they did there was paint themselves into a corner. They have done a lot of great things with their machines, but steadfastly insisting that steppers are better is not in my opinion one of them.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  12. #152
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    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    They have done a lot of great things with their machines, but steadfastly insisting that steppers are better is not in my opinion one of them.
    I think it was a matter of design constraints and a cost vs benefit analysis. For many users, servos just aren't worth the extra cost compared to steppers.

    Mike



  13. #153

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Well, I tried the iMach P1AS pendant and had all kinds of random e-stops, and often it would not reset. I tried it on another Mach 3 driven machine in the shop and had similar problems. I have the Charter Oak running on a brand new Win7Pro64 machine (seems much more stable) and the iMach pendant exhibited similar symptoms on it. I even tried disconnecting the e-stop button in the pendant. I gave up on it. Today I installed an X-Box 360 PC controller (Authentic Microsoft) and it works a LOT better SO FAR.


    It doesn't have the fancy display, but all the controls are configurable via the plugin config menu. I already have run/reset/jog/con-step/feedhold and joysticks for all three axis configured and it works.


    I think this is going to be my pendant of choice. Now to run down to the Mission store and see if they have any used ones laying around I can throw on my other machines. The fact that the XBox controller is a fraction of the cost doesn't hurt either.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  14. #154

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Well, I tried the iMach P1AS pendant and had all kinds of random e-stops, and often it would not reset. I tried it on another Mach 3 driven machine in the shop and had similar problems. I have the Charter Oak running on a brand new Win7Pro64 machine (seems much more stable) and the iMach pendant exhibited similar symptoms on it. I even tried disconnecting the e-stop button in the pendant. I gave up on it. Today I installed an X-Box 360 PC controller (Authentic Microsoft) and it works a LOT better SO FAR.


    It doesn't have the fancy display, but all the controls are configurable via the plugin config menu. I already have run/reset/jog/con-step/feedhold and joysticks for all three axis configured and it works.


    I think this is going to be my pendant of choice. Now to run down to the Mission store and see if they have any used ones laying around I can throw on my other machines. The fact that the XBox controller is a fraction of the cost doesn't hurt either.
    I missed the flipping obvious. *The E-Stop button on the iMach pendant was defective. *When I got around to checking it it showed open on the wired terminals. *I didn't realize it had already failed, so I tried the pendant with the wires cut. *The machine just wouldn't come out of E-Stop. *

    The guy from iMach sent me a couple other test plugins to try. *One wouldn't allow the pendant to send an E-Stop signal if there was any USB problems, and the other just didn't recognize the E-stop signal from the pendant at all. *

    I tried the second one first. *It worked perfectly except the display on the pendant kept showing e-stop. *I opened the pendant back up, shorted the wires, and everything works as its supposed to except I don't have an e-stop button on the pendant. *No worries. *I have one on the mill, and the screen button on the computer. *Hopefully Lee will send me a replacement button or two. *

    I have to say I am almost a little disappointed to have found the problem. *I really like the way the XBox 360 controller works and is so configurable. *I think I'll move it over to the little Chinese Noodle Router. *

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  15. #155

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Well, I have remove the Mach 1 Tooling system. Its ok, but I'm not crazy about it. For now I have a Kwik 200 master holder in the quill. Its not as fast as the Mach 1, but I trust it, I already had a bunch of Kwik 200 tool holders, additional holders are in plentiful supply in good used condition, are much cheaper than new single source Mach 1 stuff. If somebody has a Mach 1 setup and would like to buy my Mach 1 collets and tool holders let me know. I'll sell them (as a lot) for 60% of what new ones cost from Mach 1. If nobody here is interested, I'll put them on Ebay.

    I may eventually switch to a TTS style system, but not until I do my spindle belt drive conversion and work out all the rest of the little bugs.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  16. #156

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    I would like to note that even as recently as today I am in frequent communication with Paul and Tony, and they are making adjustments and improvments to the machine electronics. Many of them based on feedback from me. They have also sent me things to help improve my machine, and have been willing to credit me for things I replaced with better things on my own dime. I'm can't speak for Charter Oak, and I doubt they would just take back anything a customer wants to swap out, but they have been very much about improving the overall machine with every build. I would sure like to see one of their new direct drive machines in operation as they complete them.

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  17. #157

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob La Londe View Post
    Well, I have remove the Mach 1 Tooling system. Its ok, but I'm not crazy about it. For now I have a Kwik 200 master holder in the quill. Its not as fast as the Mach 1, but I trust it, I already had a bunch of Kwik 200 tool holders, additional holders are in plentiful supply in good used condition, are much cheaper than new single source Mach 1 stuff. If somebody has a Mach 1 setup and would like to buy my Mach 1 collets and tool holders let me know. I'll sell them (as a lot) for 60% of what new ones cost from Mach 1. If nobody here is interested, I'll put them on Ebay.

    I may eventually switch to a TTS style system, but not until I do my spindle belt drive conversion and work out all the rest of the little bugs.
    How about $600 plus actual shipping (domestic). Even if you just want the collets and tool holders that's a smoking price.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine-mach-1-1-jpg   ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine-mach-1-2-jpg  
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  18. #158

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    Not much to report performance wise. I added an external 5VDC power supply for the encoders courtesy of Charter Oak (it just arrived one day). I wired it in, but I really didn't note anything different. I've cut several jobs lately without crashing, but I still occasionally hear what sounds like a fractional (hundredth maybe) second slow down on the spindle. It could just be in my head now because the cuts are looking pretty good. I may switch the ESS over to the new power supply also, but my next tuning thing is going to be to chase noise on the encoders and controllers. I finally broke down and bought a modern two channel oscilliscope with auto range and time. I'll probably start by reading the signals from the encoders and go from there. I would like to be able to get a little faster acceleration. I've been keeping the machine pretty busy so I may not have much time for that for a little while.

    I have also pushed it about as far as I can with mist coolant. I finally got back to adding flood to the machine. Shouldn't be too difficult since it already has a receptacle wired in on the j-box on the back of the mill for it. I have one criticism of the machine at this point. The table is close at both ends. This means that I'll have to vacuum out the table every time I shut it down to keep it from holding several cups of coolant. Its good practice anyway since chips in the table would hold some coolant, but I still wish the table drained out atleast one end. One might say some big mills have big closed tables, but most of them also already have pretapped drain holes too. I am hesitant to cut or drill the table though. Never know what unrelieved stresses might suddenly get relieved catastrophically. LOL.

    Last night I added a double sink drain to my chip pan. I already have several pumps. I bought a Harbor Freight parts washer for a coolant tank yesterday. I went in specifically to buy one, and they were on sale so I bought two. I think the second one will make a better coolant tank for my Hurco than the pickle bucket I am currently using. LOL. Still a lot of work to do for the coolant system, but atleast I finally got started. If I leave the main legs off the tank it should slide right in under the main down pipe. Just have to cut a hole in the lid and build a filter basket to go in the hole. I have PVC screen material that will go in the sink drains to prevent any larger chips from getting into the tank at all.

    Speaking of the sink drains. I didn't mount them the normal way with them stuck through the basin hole. Instead I screwed them to the bottom of the pan under the hole with marine sealant in between. That way there is no lip at all for coolant to puddle behind before it flows into the drain.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine-flood-1-jpg   ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine-flood-2-jpg   ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine-flood-3-jpg   ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine-scope-jpg  

    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  19. #159

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    If any of you followed my KMB1 retrofit this manifold should look familiar.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine-coolant-manifold-1-jpg   ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine-coolant-manifold-2-jpg  
    Bob La Londe
    http://www.YumaBassMan.com


  20. #160

    Default Re: ANXIETY - New Charter Oak Machine

    I bought a CO mill also. I am trying to home the machine but am having problems. The first problem is when jogging or homing to try to hit the x limit switchs/ home switch the machine has a external estop before it can get to those switches. I am wondering if they didnt set this axis stop up and I am actual crashing it and it is stopping because of a high load on motors at the limit of travel and it is triggering a estop. Also when I try to home the z axis triggers the switch but keeps on going and it shows the switch is triggering in diagostic mode. The machine does home on the y axis when I disable the z axis switch and then goes to try to home x and has a estop before hitting the x axis home switch.



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